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View Poll Results: Should Ottawa be officially bilingual?
Yes, Ottawa should be officially bilingual. 112 56.00%
No, Ottawa should not be officially bilingual. 63 31.50%
Yes, Gatineau should take the same initiative. 62 31.00%
No, gatineau should not take the same initiative. 17 8.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 200. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
That's exactly why I said what I said above. The two cities are far too intertwined via the NCC to consider them separately. It would be no different than pretending Nepean wasn't part of Ottawa prior to municipal amalgamation - different city council, but same city. Or a more extreme example, pretending Scarborough wasn't part of Toronto before 1998.
They are intertwined for sure but not nearly as much as Nepean-Ottawa, Kanata-Ottawa, Gloucester-Ottawa were pre-merger.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
It is a microcosm of Canada from the 1800's.
That sounds really cool to say at a hipster cocktail party but it's not accurate at all. Ottawa has a fifth to a quarter visible minorities. With some viz min anglos and viz min francos. Which is also representative of contemporary Canada.

Plus, not everywhere in Canada is 50% viz min.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 2:42 PM
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It's a bit scary how much of a microcosm of Canada Ottawa is, given that no serious effort has ever been made by the federal government to capital-ify Ottawa.

Aside from its demographics, there's also the way Ottawa interacts with the rest of the country... it's just like the way (Anglo-)Canada interacts with the world. Not very high profile, not getting much attention, not bragging much, but inwardly believing itself to be the greatest.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
What I find odd, is that a francophone with barely passable English are sometimes considered bilingual, yet if an Anglo had the same command of French they aren't even close.

True story...We did some work for the NCR, and their supervisor could barely speak English...He did stumble through though...I'm willing to bet that had he been an Anglo stumbling through French, he may have not even got the job in the first place...I'm not trying to spark a debate, but these were my observations, and this wasn't my only experience.....
I don't dispute that this happens, but I can tell you that it's 10 times more common for the French requirements of anglophones to be ''shirked'' on in Ottawa.

It's a bit normal when you consider that English is the main operating language of the federal public service.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't dispute that this happens, but I can tell you that it's 10 times more common for the French requirements of anglophones to be ''shirked'' on in Ottawa.

It's a bit normal when you consider that English is the main operating language of the federal public service.
Indeed, there are exceptions but as a general rule the easiest way to ensure that your career fades into anonymity in the public service is to write in French. At the spoken level, things are vastly better than they used to be, but English is certainly not threatened.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 3:15 PM
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Indeed, there are exceptions but as a general rule the easiest way to ensure that your career fades into anonymity in the public service is to write in French. At the spoken level, things are vastly better than they used to be, but English is certainly not threatened.
And there are all sorts of stories in the capital region about entire departments put into a tizzy when a new minister gets named and demands that everything going up to his or office comes to him or her in French, not English. It seems like the public service machine has a lot of trouble adapting to such situations. Which can occur once in a blue moon.

It also happens apparently (though much more rarely) for a Deputy Minister to request the same of his or her department. But generally these people have risen up through the ranks of the public service (as opposed to being politicians groomed outside of it) and even if they are committed and proud francophones they tend to have a better grasp of the modus operandi in Ottawa (language-wise).
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And there are all sorts of stories in the capital region about entire departments put into a tizzy when a new minister gets named and demands that everything going up to his or office comes to him or her in French, not English. It seems like the public service machine has a lot of trouble adapting to such situations. Which can occur once in a blue moon.

It also happens apparently (though much more rarely) for a Deputy Minister to request the same of his or her department. But generally these people have risen up through the ranks of the public service (as opposed to being politicians groomed outside of it) and even if they are committed and proud francophones they tend to have a better grasp of the modus operandi in Ottawa (language-wise).
I've never heard of it wrt a DM, but it's not unusual at the ministerial level. I wouldn't describe it as a "tizzy", but it sure puts pressure on the translation bills (which contributes to another kind of pressure....), since it's the originator and not the Minister's office that is responsible for the translation. I don't know that there's really a solution for that, as there's no expectation that all cabinet ministers and their staffs be blilingual. If I were the king of public service, I would address this by making ministers' offices responsible for translation. Of course, that does nothing to help in the case of urgent matters.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 3:29 PM
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Not speaking from personal experience, just reporting from cocktail party and poolside bbq circuit.

I think the fact that you hear these things does speak to the inability of many federal outfits to produce original written materials in French.

In some cases though the offices do have a number of francophones on duty but they cannot produce in French satisfactorily either due to 1) poor original French writing skills (quite typical of Franco-Ontarians unfort) or 2) lapsed French writing skills due to years of working in English for the feds.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not saying this is what you said, but job locations is not the same as job holders. These jobs may be in Gatineau but a lot of them (in downtown Gatineau - Vieux Hull - the majority in fact) are held down by Ontario residents. Of course, it's still a boon for Gatineau in terms of in-lieu tax money from the buildings and other spinoffs. And of course many people from Gatineau work in Ottawa too.
Sorry, I thought that it was clear to everyone that just because you work in Ottawa or Gatineau, you don't necessairly live there.

Regarding the bolded part: Many more people from Gatineau commute to work in Ottawa, than people from Ottawa commute to work in Gatineau, based on traffic patterns that I observe and participate in. Not really making a point, just stating a fact.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:17 PM
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Apart from the issue of official bilingualism, I have always been disappointed by Ottawa's retail/commercial community. With some exceptions, commercial signs are in English. Even if they are unable to provide service in French (which I can live with), more bilingual signage in the core would make Ottawa just a bit less bland, I always felt.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not speaking from personal experience, just reporting from cocktail party and poolside bbq circuit.

I think the fact that you hear these things does speak to the inability of many federal outfits to produce original written materials in French.

In some cases though the offices do have a number of francophones on duty but they cannot produce in French satisfactorily either due to 1) poor original French writing skills (quite typical of Franco-Ontarians unfort) or 2) lapsed French writing skills due to years of working in English for the feds.
Even if they could provide a satisfactory translation, it it really fair to ask them to do it without fair compensation? I believe federal government translators make anywhere from $80K, to north of $100K a year.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:22 PM
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Even if they could provide a satisfactory translation, it it really fair to ask them to do it without fair compensation? I believe federal government translators make anywhere from $80K, to north of $100K a year.
I'm not sure I understand. With minor exceptions, you wouldn't normally translate your own written work (anyone with the time to do that would be underworked, imho).
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Apart from the issue of official bilingualism, I have always been disappointed by Ottawa's retail/commercial community. With some exceptions, commercial signs are in English. Even if they are unable to provide service in French (which I can live with), more bilingual signage in the core would make Ottawa just a bit less bland, I always felt.
Not that I am against it, but what is it about English-French bilingual signage that makes a place less bland?
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:26 PM
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Not that I am against it, but what is it about English-French bilingual signage that makes a place less bland?
It would just be "different", at least in terms of cities in much of Canada. It sort of reduces bilingualism to "decoration", however. And when I think of it, even with lots of bilingual signage, Ottawa would still be fairly bland.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:28 PM
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Even if they could provide a satisfactory translation, it it really fair to ask them to do it without fair compensation? I believe federal government translators make anywhere from $80K, to north of $100K a year.
I wasn't really talking about translation. I am talking about writing stuff originally in French and then the ''machine'' having the ability to process it in French all the way up the chain.

There is a lot of talk among a certain set about how translation is wasteful, always referring to the ''French'' being wasteful, but another big chunk of waste comes from the inability of the machine (and especially certain anglos within it) to understand any French at all.

Therefore it not uncommon for a speech to be delivered in French in Quebec somewhere to be first drafted in English, approved up the chain (often with only one unilingual anglo in the chain) and then translated into French for delivery.

You also get questions from citizens in French or media inquiries in French, translated into English so someone can understand, then responses prepared in English and then the whole thing translated into French again.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
Sorry, I thought that it was clear to everyone that just because you work in Ottawa or Gatineau, you don't necessairly live there.

Regarding the bolded part: Many more people from Gatineau commute to work in Ottawa, than people from Ottawa commute to work in Gatineau, based on traffic patterns that I observe and participate in. Not really making a point, just stating a fact.
Of course. Ottawa is four times the size of Gatineau and has the main CBD in the metro and has four times or more as many jobs as Gatineau.

But the percentage of jobs held down in Gatineau by Ottawa people is higher.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:30 PM
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I wasn't really talking about translation. I am talking about writing stuff originally in French and then the ''machine'' having the ability to process it in French all the way up the chain.

There is a lot of talk among a certain set about how translation is wasteful, always referring to the ''French'' being wasteful, but another big chunk of waste comes from the inability of the machine (and especially certain anglos within it) to understand any French at all.

Therefore it not uncommon for a speech to be delivered in French in Quebec somewhere to be first drafted in English, approved up the chain (often with only one unilingual anglo in the chain) and then translated into French for delivery.

You also get questions from citizens in French or media inquiries in French, translated into English so someone can understand, then responses prepared in English and then the whole thing translated into French again.
Just the cost of being Canada. The "certain set" should pound salt, as far as I'm concerned.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:32 PM
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Just the cost of being Canada. The "certain set" should pound salt, as far as I'm concerned.
I couldn't agree more. Just pointing out that it not always ''the other guy".
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
It would just be "different", at least in terms of cities in much of Canada. It sort of reduces bilingualism to "decoration", however. And when I think of it, even with lots of bilingual signage, Ottawa would still be fairly bland.
Well, institutional signage in Ottawa like street signs, signs at arenas and pools, and highway signage is rigorously bilingual. Even if the far west end where there are few francophones. I've always found it to be more ''decorative'' (as you say) than borderline ''organic'' like it is in a place like, I dunno... Moncton. Or at least Dieppe...
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Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've always found it to be more ''decorative'' (as you say) than borderline ''organic'' like it is in a place like, I dunno... Moncton. Or at least Dieppe...
Maybe we should just make Moncton the capital of Canada.

We are, as you have said, more organically bilingual than Ottawa is.

I remember once Reader's Digest pointing out that Moncton was the most "Canadian" city in the country (2/3rds anglophone, 1/3rd francophone, Mounties as the municipal police force, more Tim Horton's per capita than anywhere else in the country). Heck, the city even operates it's own maple sugar bush!

Yeah, Moncton as the new national capital! What a great way to stimulate the NB economy!! Lets do it......
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