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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Other than being geographically central, which obviously isn't necessary (Victoria? St. John's?)
A central location is a very strong point in favor of a capital. Those examples aren't very good examples, because when they were chosen, these provinces didn't yet have all those hinterlands. Plus, being central to the population distribution is more important than being squarely in the geographical center of a mostly empty province (i.e. Winnipeg is "central" for Manitoba).

In the case of Newfoundland, it was so water-based and Europe-focused that St. John's actually WAS the most optimal location geographically (on the water, and closest to the motherland) for a capital.

In the case of BC, IIRC, Victoria managed to usurp the position of capital quite unfairly - it was going to be in the Lower Mainland, which would have been a logical choice. You can't argue that Greater Vancouver isn't "central" for BC's population distribution!
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 9:15 PM
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Yes, I think centrality is important but that it is often presented in an oversimplified way.

A good assessment of which place is most central would need to at least:
- Consider where people live.
- Consider the topology/connectedness of the relevant transportation networks at the time (or maybe in the future), and how cheap and fast it is to travel along a given route.
- Discount places that are so far away that picking a slightly closer capital is a bad trade-off.

This is quite different from arbitrarily picking a spot that looks like it's near the geographic centre of a province or of the populated parts of a province. This is more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrality

If I were to figure out the most central area in the Maritimes as one example I'd draw up a graph with nodes for abstract cities or populated areas and vertices for transportation links. Highways and frequent flight routes would be most important. Passenger rail and ferry routes would count too, but probably for a lot less. Maybe shipping and rail freight would matter too.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 9:44 PM
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I think a more interesting question might be: does it make sense for the individual maritime provinces to all be operating under a common Federal jurisdiction? How would these provinces look if they had the sovereign freedom of an independent state?

Someone123 brought up an interesting point earlier about centralization actually working against developing advanced economies, in that Toronto takes all the finance away, Ottawa takes most of the federal government positions away, and the maritime provinces are left fighting among-st themselves over the "scraps" of industry that Ottawa lets them have (and of course their own indigenous entrepreneurship, which is again stifled by a significant brain drain towards the rest of Canada and the United States).

I think it's a foregone conclusion that uniting these disparate entities under one sub-sovereign entity like a province is an unsolvable political problem. Perhaps it was always the wrong question to ask.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Indeed. In fact PEI could only justify about 1.4 seats in the HoC rather than the four seats it is guaranteed now. In such a scenario, I would expect one seat for Queens/Kings County in PEI, with Prince County combined with eastern Westmorland County NB for the second seat.
I wouldn't be surprised if an exception was made and PEI was allowed two seats to avoid the awkwardness of a seat sprawling across the Northumberland Sound. In NL, Labrador is given its own seat despite only qualifying for about 0.4 seats out of NL's allotment of 7.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
If I were to figure out the most central area in the Maritimes as one example I'd draw up a graph with nodes for abstract cities or populated areas and vertices for transportation links. Highways and frequent flight routes would be most important. Passenger rail and ferry routes would count too, but probably for a lot less. Maybe shipping and rail freight would matter too.
Out of curiosity, do you seriously think you'd have to actually go and do the whole exercise (instead of just saving all that time and declaring: "Moncton") ?
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:38 PM
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This is quite different from arbitrarily picking a spot that looks like it's near the geographic centre of a province...
Interestingly, that's exactly how many US state capitals were chosen, back when the states were blank slates. Not knowing exactly what the settlement patterns of the future will look like, you might as well place the capital in the geographic center of its territory; statistically, it's the safest bet.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Out of curiosity, do you seriously think you'd have to actually go and do the whole exercise (instead of just saving all that time and declaring: "Moncton") ?
Do you think it's more likely Moncton than Sackville NB, Amherst or Truro? Or maybe it would be better to build a planned capital around the Aulac clover leaf, right on the NS-NB border where the road forks off to go to PEI? Most people in the Maritimes live in Nova Scotia, even though most of the land mass is New Brunswick.

People talk about how Moncton is a hub for PEI, Fredericton, Saint John, etc. but in the same way there are populated places in Nova Scotia that are connected through Truro or Halifax. The Annapolis Valley has more people than the Fredericton CMA and is about as densely populated (approximately 120,000 in 8,000 square km vs. 95,000 in 5,500 square km). Halifax has roughly the same population as Moncton, Saint John, Fredericton, and Charlottetown combined. Note that these are metropolitan statistics so the Moncton, SJ, and Fredericton metro areas cover the most populated 1/6 of New Brunswick's entire land area.

I think this is one of those things that seems obvious if you glance at a map but would be less obvious if you went through the full exercise.

(Note that I don't think this is how a capital would be selected anyway.)
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
A central location is a very strong point in favor of a capital. Those examples aren't very good examples, because when they were chosen, these provinces didn't yet have all those hinterlands. Plus, being central to the population distribution is more important than being squarely in the geographical center of a mostly empty province (i.e. Winnipeg is "central" for Manitoba).

In the case of Newfoundland, it was so water-based and Europe-focused that St. John's actually WAS the most optimal location geographically (on the water, and closest to the motherland) for a capital.

In the case of BC, IIRC, Victoria managed to usurp the position of capital quite unfairly - it was going to be in the Lower Mainland, which would have been a logical choice. You can't argue that Greater Vancouver isn't "central" for BC's population distribution!
My point is to question how much the notion of geographic centrality is actually beneficial and how much the lack thereof has hurt those provinces, not on the circumstances surrounding how those capitals were chosen.

And of course you make a good point that the issue of population centrality and strategic connectivity is likely more relevant than geographic centrality. In terms of population centrality, over half the population of the Maritimes is in NS, and Cape Breton actually has about the same population as PEI. so Halifax isn't that much farther from the population centre than Moncton is. Remember, NB's three largest metro areas have a combined population similar to metro Halifax. And when you combine that with the fact that the Hfx Stanfield airport offers far stronger connectivity than the smaller NB airports, any advantage Moncton has in population centrality (if one in fact exists) isn't that substantial. So that question is, why is a minor advantage in that area so important?

*Edit* should probably have refreshed before posting as Someone made basically the same points lol.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:40 AM
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I think we should use our Atlantic Fleet (both ships) to seize St. Pierre et Miquelon and declare it Capital of Atlantic Canada.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by OutOfTowner View Post
I think we should use our Atlantic Fleet (both ships) to seize St. Pierre et Miquelon and declare it Capital of Atlantic Canada.
This sounds like a plan for punishing politicians in Atlantic Canada. But it might actually have some benefits. Maybe the region would see cost savings since people would leave the public service to avoid living on a small and remote island with terrible weather.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 2:53 AM
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Why not just have a decentralized government like South Africa?

Ontario places different government departments in different cities, the Maritimes could do something similar.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:08 AM
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only let it happen if northern ontario gets to leave ontario.
yes!!!
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by OutOfTowner View Post
Only if Saskatchewan and Manitoba become Saskatoba.
Mansask or Saskatoba I doubt will ever happen. Especially since Saskatchewan probably has more in common with Alberta than with Manitoba these days.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:36 AM
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Most people in the Maritimes live in Nova Scotia, even though most of the land mass is New Brunswick.
Haligonians love to trumpet the fact that the majority of Maritimers live in NS, without quantifying what exactly that plurality is. They hope that the uninformed will assume that 60% of Maritimers or maybe even 75% of Maritimers live on the Nova Scotia peninsula. In fact, only 51.3% of Maritimers live in NS, and of that total, over 8% live in Cape Breton, far removed from Halifax. This means that only 43.2% of Maritimers live on mainland Nova Scotia. Halifax's CMA is about 420,000, meaning that only 22% of Maritimers live in it's primate city.

Halifax is unquestionably the Maritimes largest city (by far), but relatively speaking, as a regional metropole, it is probably proportionately the smallest and least influential in the entire Dominion.

If I were to chose a capital for a mythical united Maritime province, I wouldn't necessarily chose Moncton (which would surprise a lot of people I'm sure). Moncton is bilingual, is the geographically most central city and lies close to the regional population isocenter. These facts are all true, but Moncton doesn't have the historical gravitas of a capital and Moncton's history (and destiny) is that of a commercial centre. For this reason, my preference for a Maritime capital would be Charlottetown.

I choose Charlottetown because it is the birthplace of confederation. In fact, the original 1864 meeting was to discuss the concept of Maritime union before those politicians from the Canada's (led by John A MacDonald) decided to crash the party. This history has to count for something.

Of the three current capitals, Charlottetown feels most like a capital city. The legislature in Fredericton is unimposing. The legislature in Halifax is lost in the forest of commercial towers. The legislature in Charlottetown however sits in the city centre, surrounded by parkland and is right next to the Confederation Centre of the Arts. Great George Street leads from Province House directly to the waterfront and is a designated historical street. The whole city revolves around the government, it's symbols and the place of Charlottetown in the historical context of Canada. No other city in the entire country is anything like this (aside from Ottawa). Charlottetown deserves to be the capital..........

If BC can have an island capital, certainly the Maritimes can too...........
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I choose Charlottetown because it is the birthplace of confederation. In fact, the original 1864 meeting was to discuss the concept of Maritime union before those politicians from the Canada's (led by John A MacDonald) decided to crash the party. This history has to count for something.

Of the three current capitals, Charlottetown feels most like a capital city. The legislature in Fredericton is unimposing. The legislature in Halifax is lost in the forest of commercial towers. The legislature in Charlottetown however sits in the city centre, surrounded by parkland and is right next to the Confederation Centre of the Arts. Great George Street leads from Province House directly to the waterfront and is a designated historical street. The whole city revolves around the government, it's symbols and the place of Charlottetown in the historical context of Canada. No other city in the entire country is anything like this (aside from Ottawa). Charlottetown deserves to be the capital..........

If BC can have an island capital, certainly the Maritimes can too...........
Agreed.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:57 AM
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Only if Saskatchewan and Manitoba become Saskatoba.
Why? Canadian provinces (except for the Maritimes) are already big.

Or did you just want to say Saskatoba?
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 6:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Haligonians love to trumpet the fact that the majority of Maritimers live in NS, without quantifying what exactly that plurality is. They hope that the uninformed will assume that 60% of Maritimers or maybe even 75% of Maritimers live on the Nova Scotia peninsula. In fact, only 51.3% of Maritimers live in NS, and of that total, over 8% live in Cape Breton, far removed from Halifax.
The larger point is that if we assume everyone in NS has to pass through the Chignecto ithsmus connecting NS to NB and PEI, and over 50% of the population in the region is in NS, then it is odd to take it for granted that the most central location (for some definition of central) must be 50 km into NB, beyond the route to PEI.

59% of people in the Maritimes would get to Sackville NB from the eastern approach of the Trans-Canada. 41% would come in from the west, the direction of Moncton, which some people presume is central to the transportation network of the region.

Maybe there could be a new District of Tidnish which technically would not belong to any of the three provinces. It could even have a ferry for direct access to PEI without crossing the border into any other province.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
relatively speaking, as a regional metropole, it is probably proportionately the smallest and least influential in the entire Dominion.
Care to elaborate on this one?

edit: I guess it depends what you consider the "regional metropoles" to be. If you mean Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, and Halifax, then yes. Although Winnipeg would be debatable.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 6:13 AM
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Mansask or Saskatoba I doubt will ever happen. Especially since Saskatchewan probably has more in common with Alberta than with Manitoba these days.
Well then, why not split Saskatchewan? Give a bit to Manitoba and the rest to Alberta. If we're seriously considering the amalgamation of the Maritime Provinces - largely due to the fact that saving a few 'taxpayer' bucks is all the rage these days (forget history) then, why not? I'm sure that all the Brad Wallians will agree: it makes fiscal sense.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 6:17 AM
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If we're seriously considering the amalgamation of the Maritime Provinces - largely due to the fact that saving a few 'taxpayer' bucks is all the rage these days (forget history) then, why not?
I think any serious move towards Maritime amalgamation would be for greater political clout, not specifically to save money.
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