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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 6:41 AM
OutOfTowner OutOfTowner is offline
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I can't speak for people in NB or PEI but I know for a fact that this plan has zero chance of ever happening if Nova Scotians have any say. This is a plan hatched by people who have never been to the Maritimes and only know the country on the internet: graphs, density, CMAs, skyline measurements, World Classiness as determined by the douchebags at Monocle, The Economist etc. "Well it's just an blob, only 2 million, let's call it Eastern Canada sometingorother and basically, fuck it. Save a coupla bucks."

Will never happen, should never happen.

It was probably a mistake that the Maritime Provinces ever joined Confederation in the first place: they got fucked.

Newfoundland got fucked too, only they were sloppy seconds.

Last edited by OutOfTowner; Jan 9, 2017 at 6:55 AM.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
A Strasbourg solution.
I'm missing the reference - I recognize you're referring to the European capital - but what's the backstory here? Just that it gets few benefits relative to Brussels, or...?
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Care to elaborate on this one (Halifax being a small and non influential regional metropole)?

edit: I guess it depends what you consider the "regional metropoles" to be. If you mean Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, and Halifax, then yes. Although Winnipeg would be debatable.
I don't see how Winnipeg would be debatable at all. Winnipeg at 800,000 people is twice the size of Halifax, fully 70% the population of Manitoba lives in Winnipeg and Winnipeg is the largest city (by far) between Toronto and Calgary.

Halifax on the other hand isn't even in the top twelve Canadian CMAs, and only has 22% of the Maritime's population (17.5% of Atlantic Canada's population if you throw in NL).

Again, Halifax is Canada's smallest and least influential regional metropole......
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo View Post
I'm missing the reference - I recognize you're referring to the European capital - but what's the backstory here? Just that it gets few benefits relative to Brussels, or...?
Oh, I could be wrong, but I thought the EU still has to pack up all its bags and shuttle to Strasbourg regularly for political reasons. I remember seeing a documentary about how much work and time it takes to pack up all these thousands of secure document cases, and thousands of employees, and move it all to Strasbourg, then back to Brussels, and repeat.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:33 PM
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This sounds like a plan for punishing politicians in Atlantic Canada. But it might actually have some benefits. Maybe the region would see cost savings since people would leave the public service to avoid living on a small and remote island with terrible weather.
I'm all for it. I'd love to have the daily working hours and annual vacation days they do. There are even some restaurants there that close at meal times, which... what?
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OutOfTowner View Post
It was probably a mistake that the Maritime Provinces ever joined Confederation in the first place: they got fucked.
I found our new national slogan!

"We got fucked" - Canada: A People's History

Just about every region/area in the whole country has expressed this sentiment at some point.

How true is it? Let the arguing begin! *looks for popcorn munching smiley*
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:41 PM
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I liked the Newfoundland "sloppy seconds" crack.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The larger point is that if we assume everyone in NS has to pass through the Chignecto ithsmus connecting NS to NB and PEI, and over 50% of the population in the region is in NS, then it is odd to take it for granted that the most central location (for some definition of central) must be 50 km into NB, beyond the route to PEI.

59% of people in the Maritimes would get to Sackville NB from the eastern approach of the Trans-Canada. 41% would come in from the west, the direction of Moncton, which some people presume is central to the transportation network of the region.

Maybe there could be a new District of Tidnish which technically would not belong to any of the three provinces. It could even have a ferry for direct access to PEI without crossing the border into any other province.
I'm perfectly willing to accept the fact that about 60% of the Maritimes population lives to the east of Moncton if you will agree that fully 0% of the Maritimes population lives to the southeast of Halifax.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfTowner View Post
I can't speak for people in NB or PEI but I know for a fact that this plan has zero chance of ever happening if Nova Scotians have any say. This is a plan hatched by people who have never been to the Maritimes and only know the country on the internet: graphs, density, CMAs, skyline measurements, World Classiness as determined by the douchebags at Monocle, The Economist etc. "Well it's just an blob, only 2 million, let's call it Eastern Canada sometingorother and basically, fuck it. Save a coupla bucks."

Will never happen, should never happen.

It was probably a mistake that the Maritime Provinces ever joined Confederation in the first place: they got fucked.

Newfoundland got fucked too, only they were sloppy seconds.
There's no "plan" as far as I know. If there were ever a move in this direction, it could only happen if the Maritimes themselves took charge. If one were feeling harsh, one could suggest that a yet another reason why it would be unlikely to happen.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Halifax on the other hand isn't even in the top twelve Canadian CMAs, and only has 22% of the Maritime's population (17.5% of Atlantic Canada's population if you throw in NL).

Again, Halifax is Canada's smallest and least influential regional metropole......
2015 Population of census metropolitan areas:
  1. Toronto 6,129,900
  2. Montreal 4,060,700
  3. Vancouver 2,504,300
  4. Calgary 1,439,800
  5. Edmonton 1,363,300
  6. Ottawa 1,332,000
  7. Quebec City 806,400
  8. Winnipeg 793,400
  9. Hamilton 771,700
  10. Kitchener 511,300
  11. London 506,400
  12. Halifax 417,800
Source: Stats Canada

Halifax is in the Top 12, and when you remove the southern Ontario cities that are greatly influenced by Toronto due to proximity (Hamilton/Kitchener/maybe London), Halifax is more likely 9th in terms of largest influential regional metropole

Largest Regional Metropoles
  1. Toronto 6,129,900
  2. Montreal 4,060,700
  3. Vancouver 2,504,300
  4. Calgary 1,439,800
  5. Edmonton 1,363,300
  6. Ottawa 1,332,000
  7. Quebec City 806,400
  8. Winnipeg 793,400
  9. Halifax 417,800


2016 Population estimates provinces:
  1. Nova Scotia 949,500
  2. New Brunswick 756,800
  3. Prince Edward Island 148,600
Maritimes Total 1,854,900

Source: Stats Canada

Halifax (Regional Municipality) may be about 23% of the Maritimes population, however the areas surrounding Halifax (Valley, South Shore, Truro/New Glasgow) are all dependent on Halifax for many services which increase the power of Halifax within the province. These nearby areas that go to the "city" on a regular basis push the regional population of Halifax towards 700,000 (nearly 40% of the Maritimes).

All Major media outlets are based in Halifax, the only proper airport is in Halifax, Children's Hospital, IKEA etc.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:42 PM
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^ London is not in Toronto's field of influence.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by north 42 View Post
^ London is not in Toronto's field of influence.
I said maybe, however I don't know how you would call London a "regional metropole".
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by q12 View Post
Largest Regional Metropoles
  1. Toronto 6,129,900
  2. Montreal 4,060,700
  3. Vancouver 2,504,300
  4. Calgary 1,439,800
  5. Edmonton 1,363,300
  6. Ottawa 1,332,000
  7. Quebec City 806,400
  8. Winnipeg 793,400
  9. Halifax 417,800


2016 Population estimates provinces:
  1. Nova Scotia 949,500
  2. New Brunswick 756,800
  3. Prince Edward Island 148,600
Maritimes Total 1,854,900

Source: Stats Canada

Halifax (Regional Municipality) may be about 23% of the Maritimes population, however the areas surrounding Halifax (Valley, South Shore, Truro/New Glasgow) are all dependent on Halifax for many services which increase the power of Halifax within the province. These nearby areas that go to the "city" on a regular basis push the regional population of Halifax towards 700,000 (nearly 40% of the Maritimes).

All Major media outlets are based in Halifax, the only proper airport is in Halifax, Children's Hospital, IKEA etc.
You can add in 87,592 from Newfoundland and Labrador as well.

As Trevor3 (from that region) have discussed here, Halifax is really the most influential city on our west coast. It's my impression that influence extends about as far west as Deer Lake, which corresponds almost perfectly with the Long Range Mountains electoral district.



Now I'm not sure what if any city is most influential up the Northern Peninsula. It's probably Corner Brook for them, the place where they'd go for clothes shopping, university, etc.

But certainly in the arc of Deer Lake-Corner Brook-Channel-Port aux Basques, Halifax is the big city.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by q12 View Post
[Halifax (Regional Municipality) may be about 23% of the Maritimes population, however the areas surrounding Halifax (Valley, South Shore, Truro/New Glasgow) are all dependent on Halifax for many services which increase the power of Halifax within the province. These nearby areas that go to the "city" on a regular basis push the regional population of Halifax towards 700,000 (nearly 40% of the Maritimes).
True, but basically irrelevant. These areas in central NS are still outside the boundaries of the Halifax CMA. The land mass you're talking about would be equivalent to southern NB which has about 500,000 people. The difference in relative population isn't that great.

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All Major media outlets are based in Halifax, the only proper airport is in Halifax, Children's Hospital, IKEA etc.
- We know about the media concentration in Halifax. Every time there is a lost kitten in the south end of Halifax it makes the news in Caraquet. It generally takes a mass shooting for news from elsewhere in the region to get noticed by the Halifax media elite.
- The Halifax airport is irrelevant to most New Brunswickers. All the major connections from our airports are to Montreal and Toronto. The three NB airports are also well served by sun destination flights in the winter. Halifax however can make a good jumping off point for a European vacation.
- NB is self sufficient in health care (including neuro and cardiac surgery). The main value of the Halifax medical complex to us is for pediatric oncology and pediatric cardiac surgery. That's it. This would account for less than 1% of NB's health care needs.
- Looking forward to IKEA!
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
- We know about the media concentration in Halifax. Every time there is a lost kitten in the south end of Halifax it makes the news in Caraquet. It generally takes a mass shooting for news from elsewhere in the region to get noticed by the Halifax media elite.
They're trying to do that here a bit more, lump us in with the Maritimes. I've caught clips from this show a few times:

http://www.cbc.ca/atlantictonight/

It's bizarre to watch one of their episodes and see news from the Maritimes mixed in with our own. It's a strange feeling. I'm opposed, of course, for political reasons - but it actually is quite nice to feel a part of something larger for a change.

The odd thing the production values seem somehow lower than our own?

This is Atlantic Tonight:

http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/848789571961

And this is Here and Now, our own CBC evening news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfou...2017-1.3925508

Of course, our other hour-long evening news program is amateur hour.

http://ntv.ca/programs/news-programs/eveningnewshour/
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Last edited by SignalHillHiker; Jan 9, 2017 at 4:56 PM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:16 PM
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In the spirit of this totally hypothetical discussion:

Any new province resulting from a Maritime union should make Halifax its capital, for many of the reasons outlined above, but also because to put the capital in another city would essentially strip Halifax of the government apparatus and much of the bureaucratic employment that are a significant feature of its demographics and economy. Halifax has been a capital for 250 years and its civic character is partly based on that.

The last thing an under-urbanized region with a relatively tiny alpha city needs is to have that very alpha city undermined.

Another good point made above is that Halifax may not be central within the region, but it has far better connections nationally and globally, by rail, sea, and air. Those connections are much more important to a regional capital than being at the geographic crossroads of the region, which seems to be of more symbolic than practical value. After all, what real advantages would Moncton enjoy as the capital by virtue of being more central?

(All that aside, I'm kinda swayed by MonctonRad's suggestion of Charlottetown.)
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:16 PM
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I said maybe, however I don't know how you would call London a "regional metropole".
It certainly is, at the provincial level, as the regional centre for SWOntario, especially for specialized medical care.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:29 PM
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Charlottetown is the appealing non-partisan selection for Capital but it can't be denied that Halifax is appealing on the basis of scale and government structure. If the entire point of MU is to appear larger and more powerful and more in-control of its destiny it would be weird for bureaucrats/governmental officials from elsewhere in the country to be shown and flown into our new capital - a town of 10,000, or 50,000, or whatever. Show them that big urban centre and show them what we can do with it. The entire point of this exercise would be to have more clout on the national and international stage. Difficult to have that perception if our capital is in a small town.

We can have twenty pages of discussion on this but at the end of the day I find it entirely difficult to believe that residents in NB and PEI are going to give up their own capitals in favour of moving them to Halifax. There would have to be significant reason to do this. We can disagree on how capitals should be chosen and what indicators should be used but from a public opinion idea I can't see Halifax flying too well with most NBers, as logical a choice as it is.

As an aside, I think one of the bargaining chips which would theoretically be used to entice PEI to join a prospective MU would be to give them the capital. It seems like an alright tradeoff for a province losing their provincial designation and their overabundance of seats in the House and Senate.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
True, but basically irrelevant. These areas in central NS are still outside the boundaries of the Halifax CMA. The land mass you're talking about would be equivalent to southern NB which has about 500,000 people. The difference in relative population isn't that great.
Except for Southern New Brunswick is broken up into three population centres. The area around Halifax (nearly all of mainland Nova Scotia) goes to Halifax for services they can't get in their community on a regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
- The Halifax airport is irrelevant to most New Brunswickers.
Air Canada's and Westjet's route maps seem to suggest otherwise...

Air Canada

Source: Air Canada enRoute Magazine

Westjet

Source: Westjet Magazine
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 4:50 PM
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I'm not arguing that Halifax doesn't have much better connections to the world than NB airports. Obviously it does.

What I am saying is that if a connecting flight is necessary, that NBers are far more likely to take a decent sized plane to Montreal or Toronto to make the connection rather than a Beechcraft (typical intercity commuter in the region) to Halifax Stanfield.

Also, the only NB city within a decent driving distance to Halifax is Moncton, and, with about 700,000 PAX per year at the GMIA, it's pretty obvious that most Monctonians fly out of our home airport. If people from Freddy or SJ are going to drive to an airport other than their own, they will drive to Bangor, not Halifax.
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