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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 9:49 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Catastrophic problems with Canadian condos

I was reading this Bloomberg article recently about a tower literally sinking and shifting in it's foundation causing numerous lawsuits and an uncertain future for the tower.

It reminded me of a few major problems Calgary condos have recently had, including this problem with Rocky Mountain Court, where a contractor was found guilty of doing severe damage to the foundation which required (at least) each unit owner paying 6 figures of damages.

On a smaller scale, Bella Vista had severe problems with a leaky roof that also required a 6 figure damage bill.

What catastrophic problems have condos in your city had, and what is the story, what happened, what were the results?
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I was reading this Bloomberg article recently about a tower literally sinking and shifting in it's foundation causing numerous lawsuits and an uncertain future for the tower.

It reminded me of a few major problems Calgary condos have recently had, including this problem with Rocky Mountain Court, where a contractor was found guilty of doing severe damage to the foundation which required (at least) each unit owner paying 6 figures of damages.

On a smaller scale, Bella Vista had severe problems with a leaky roof that also required a 6 figure damage bill.

What catastrophic problems have condos in your city had, and what is the story, what happened, what were the results?
wait 10-15 years and you'll see a tsunami of horror stories. window walls are not supposed to last more than 20 years.
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:34 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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For all the hoopla regarding window wall design, I have yet to hear a case of a "catastrophic" issue with them. I've heard of leaks here and there and spot fixes needed, but nothing on the level of any of the examples I cited above.

For the record I've been enjoying living in condos for a very long time now, and every condo I have ever lived in has had replacing the entire window system as a line item fully funded by the condo fees. The time frame for replacement is typically 20 years, and I would assume any well managed condo organization would be on top of fully funding these obligations (and any others).
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:36 PM
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For the record I've been enjoying living in condos for a very long time now, and every condo I have ever lived in has had replacing the entire window system as a line item fully funded by the condo fees. The time frame for replacement is typically 20 years, and I would assume any well managed condo organization would be on top of fully funding these obligations (and any others).
In Ontario, new laws passed in 2015 have strict requirements for condo boards to manage lifecycle costs properly. If I was buying a condo I'd look for a building where occupancy started after 2015 for this reason. Would make me feel a lot better...
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:52 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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In Ontario, new laws passed in 2015 have strict requirements for condo boards to manage lifecycle costs properly. If I was buying a condo I'd look for a building where occupancy started after 2015 for this reason. Would make me feel a lot better...
It goes without saying that any purchase of a condo would require going through said condo's finances with a fine tooth comb. Part of that is ensuring all obligations - including end of life window replacement - are covered.

I would actually be far more uncomfortable purchasing at a condo which does not have at least 5 years of documented finances covering it's operating history, regardless of what the current laws say. I would actually say at least 10 years is highly desirable.
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 10:57 PM
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Once the condo fees reach $1500/month, and + , .........
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:11 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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With 10 years operating history, it is fairly easy to tell which condos have sustainable condo fees and which don't.

There are 20+ year old buildings in Calgary which offer large 1000+ sqft units which have condo fees in the couple hundreds.

That said, does no one have any examples of catastrophic issues with condos in their own cities? (Real issues, not imaginary ones)
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:41 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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I really dislike condos - I couldn't stand not being fully in charge of my own long-term-building-components-lifecycle planning.
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:50 PM
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wait 10-15 years and you'll see a tsunami of horror stories. window walls are not supposed to last more than 20 years.


30 years, as I understand it, but yes the bills will be wicked.
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Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 11:52 PM
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I really dislike condos - I couldn't stand not being fully in charge of my own long-term-building-components-lifecycle planning.
That would be one of the attractions for those drawn to condo ownership.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:02 AM
OutOfTowner OutOfTowner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I was reading this Bloomberg article recently about a tower literally sinking and shifting in it's foundation causing numerous lawsuits and an uncertain future for the tower.

It reminded me of a few major problems Calgary condos have recently had, including this problem with Rocky Mountain Court, where a contractor was found guilty of doing severe damage to the foundation which required (at least) each unit owner paying 6 figures of damages.

On a smaller scale, Bella Vista had severe problems with a leaky roof that also required a 6 figure damage bill.

What catastrophic problems have condos in your city had, and what is the story, what happened, what were the results?
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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
Once the condo fees reach $1500/month, and + , .........
Some of the buildings that are the subject of 1000 photo posts on this site are known to be a complete p.o.s. when it comes to build quality. Glass falls off, elevators don't work, pipes burst, fit and finish is abysmal, hydro bills are sky high, maintenance fees double or triple..

There will be many questions asked 20-30 years down the road as to how so much absolute garbage was allowed to be built in the earlier part of the century.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:20 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
[/B]
30 years, as I understand it, but yes the bills will be wicked.
The bills should be encapsulated in the budget that condos fees contribute towards.

FTR the actual bill in terms of capital expenditure is typically in the hundreds of thousands for a high rise, but a 100+ unit high rise which is 5-10 years old should generally have a about million (or more) in the reserve fund at any given time.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:22 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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I really dislike condos - I couldn't stand not being fully in charge of my own long-term-building-components-lifecycle planning.
Condos are not for everyone, certainly. But for me the trade off is opportunity cost regarding spending my time on other things versus micro managing cyclic reoccurring maintenance items. Single family detached home ownership is a relative nightmare for that and it would be very hard for me to go back.

Personally it has paid off many times over for me, but your mileage may vary.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
wait 10-15 years and you'll see a tsunami of horror stories. window walls are not supposed to last more than 20 years.
20 years? Most news articles point to 10. There's window wall towers from the 1970s in Toronto. It's the installation that is questionable with today's condos but, that shouldn't limit the lifespan. These will be repair than and only replacement when theirs no other option. Same with curtianwall.
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Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:40 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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That's said, there are a lot of horror storeys when it comes to the installation that won't likely cause condo board to go through with early replacement but will lead to many costly repairs.
Are there high profile documented cases for this sort of thing in Toronto? I've seen a few cases like that in Calgary but the cost, especially for a high rise spread over many units, it typically is not in the "catastrophe" range, and simply a minor additional special assessment type charge.

Broadly speaking the I've only really seen two categories of "catastrophic" problems in the Calgary market - the negligent contractor situation in the case of Rocky Mountain Court, and shoddy build quality on a disposable badly managed low rise like Bella Vista. I'm curious about other large high profile problems in other markets.
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Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Condos are not for everyone, certainly. But for me the trade off is opportunity cost regarding spending my time on other things versus micro managing cyclic reoccurring maintenance items. Single family detached home ownership is a relative nightmare for that and it would be very hard for me to go back..
Tell me about it.. I became a homeowner (SFH) a year and half ago and there's a lot to keep track of. It's nothing I can't handle but I can definitely see the attraction people have to condos where someone else takes care of all that.
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Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:47 AM
Marshsparrow Marshsparrow is offline
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and the cardboard cookie-cutter sprawl that has been built in the last 30 years is of the same quality I would say = garbage
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by OutOfTowner View Post
Some of the buildings that are the subject of 1000 photo posts on this site are known to be a complete p.o.s. when it comes to build quality. Glass falls off, elevators don't work, pipes burst, fit and finish is abysmal, hydro bills are sky high, maintenance fees double or triple..

There will be many questions asked 20-30 years down the road as to how so much absolute garbage was allowed to be built in the earlier part of the century.
Elevator maintenance is a problem for everyone and you can blame the union. It just sucks more in a 40 storey tower opposed to a mid rise or short highrise. The falling glass is mostly SSG curtainwall. Pipes bursting and, in particular, sprinkler heads failing happen in the top office building too. One thing for sure, early occupancy permits need to be stricter as these situation tend to arise in new condos within the first few months of move ins and while construction on the upper floors is still ongoing.
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Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 12:56 AM
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new elevators cost millions. That's why condos triplex might be a better investment in the long term.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2017, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Are there high profile documented cases for this sort of thing in Toronto? I've seen a few cases like that in Calgary but the cost, especially for a high rise spread over many units, it typically is not in the "catastrophe" range, and simply a minor additional special assessment type charge.

Broadly speaking the I've only really seen two categories of "catastrophic" problems in the Calgary market - the negligent contractor situation in the case of Rocky Mountain Court, and shoddy build quality on a disposable badly managed low rise like Bella Vista. I'm curious about other large high profile problems in other markets.
I don't know. I will say some of those special assessments in Calgary would be covered by the developer's warranty program in Toronto. The installation related issues I'm referring to won't be known for a while. Little things like the wrong screws or improperly installed or missing seals.
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