Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Interesting comments.

Do you consider the # 97 successful from the airport now? Why would a train connection to the airport be any less successful?

The # 97 takes 30 minutes to go from the airport to the Rideau Centre, and one leaves the airport every (roughly) 15 minutes during the day. If the timing of the airport shuttle works out, then its timing will be locked to the timing of the Trillium Line; that is, every 10-12 minutes. It will take about 5 minutes to get to Greenboro and another 4-5 minutes before a person is on the Trillium line heading north. The train trip from Greenboro to Bayview is 16 minutes, according to the schedule, and that might improve once more track is twinned at the north end. So, a trip from the airport to Bayview Station will be about 26 minutes. Sorry I can’t estimate the length of time it will take the Confederation Line train to get from Bayview to the Rideau Centre, but a train will be going in that direction “every 5 minutes or less”.

Remember, also, that the # 97, if it continued to go to the airport, would be limited to only going as far north as Hurdman; where the person would need to transfer to the Confederation Line. It is currently shown as an 18 minutes ride from the airport to Hurdman on the # 97.

Since the # 97 will be removed once the airport shuttle train begins, is there any real reason to expect that fewer people will take transit to/from the airport? If they take transit now, then the shuttle will be their transit option when it starts. I was chatting with a fellow downtown who had a suitcase with him. He had just flown in from out west and was not going to spend $45 to get downtown. He was very pleased that there was a public transit option for less than a tenth of the cost – even if it took him a bit longer.

If I recall, when I was in Paris, I took the CDGVAL to Terminal 2; transferred to the RER; and then transferred again onto the Metro to get to a distance that I could walk to my lodging.

Don’t forget that the airport shuttle will also be providing service to the EY Centre; and that station will be closer than stops that the buses currently stop at.

I tend to think it unlikely that the synchronization of the trillium line and airport line will be as exacting in practice as it is in theory. The Trillium line is not able to follow and exact schedule now, I don't see how it would be more likely to follow an exact schedule when it is longer and has more stops.

Yes there are cities where one might transfer 3 times to get from the airport to the city centre, but none as small or as comparably easier to get to get to by taxi/uber as Ottawa.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I tend to think it unlikely that the synchronization of the trillium line and airport line will be as exacting in practice as it is in theory. The Trillium line is not able to follow and exact schedule now, I don't see how it would be more likely to follow an exact schedule when it is longer and has more stops. .

The main thing that causes the Trillium line to not follow an exact schedule is conflict with Via Rail trains. Once one train gets behind schedule it daisy chains to the others. Stage 2 will grade separate the Ellwood Diamond, so this issue should go away and the Trillium line will be much more reliable.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The main thing that causes the Trillium line to not follow an exact schedule is conflict with Via Rail trains. Once one train gets behind schedule it daisy chains to the others. Stage 2 will grade separate the Ellwood Diamond, so this issue should go away and the Trillium line will be much more reliable.

The website doesn't make a mention of that.
http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/south/

Grade separation is a major project.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Once the P&R lots further south are developed and serviced by the Trillium Line, we will see if the City follows through with their plans to redevelop the Greenboro P&R site. At this point, I can only go by what the City has announced; that they want to redevelop the site for high density, and that P&R lots should not be within the Greenbelt. The City also insists that multi-level parking is not in the cards for P&R lots; so their high density development will likely NOT include a P&R lot.

[Yes, there is a small P&R at Baseline, but it is destined to be cut in half by the future station / bus facilities.]

Once that P&R is gone, what is the draw for the Greenboro Station? Is there really a need to have a stop at each end of a big-box mall? Would the delay of a station be better at a new station at Walkley – instead of doubling the delay between South Keys and Mooney’s Bay?

As somebody who lives nearby but too far to walk, this rationale gives me less reason to use transit and less reason to go to major events like the Grey Cup, Canada Day or football or hockey games. I am not using local bus shuttles that run once every half hour if they run late enough at all, like on Sundays. By all means, design transit only for those who choose to live in high density situations but you can forget about the rest of us and the end result, is that we will use our cars more in the future.

I will ask the question. If the Greenboro Park n Ride was more than half full for the Grey Cup yesterday, what is the alternative for all of us?

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As somebody who lives nearby but too far to walk, this rationale gives me less reason to use transit and less reason to go to major events like the Grey Cup, Canada Day or football or hockey games. I am not using local bus shuttles that run once every half hour if they run late enough at all, like on Sundays. By all means, design transit only for those who choose to live in high density situations but you can forget about the rest of us and the end result, is that we will use our cars more in the future.

I will ask the question. If the Greenboro Park n Ride was more than half full for the Grey Cup yesterday, what is the alternative for all of us?

I definitely agree. Removing P&R lots within the city is a terrible idea. Nobody who owns a car is going to subject themselves to having to wait for the half hourly (if they're lucky) local routes. I can actually reach South Keys station on foot in about 15 minutes, but I wouldn't walk it in the middle of winter, especially if I have my kids along. The city is deluded if they think in-greenbelt transit is good enough outside of peak periods.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The city is deluded if they think in-greenbelt transit is good enough outside of peak periods.

That is the key phrase. The city only thinks about peak periods.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is the key phrase. The city only thinks about peak periods.

But we expect people to use transit to go to major events in off peak hours. The compromise is that we go to the closest park and ride lot and use transit from there. If there is no park and ride lot, how does it work at all anymore?

That is also the selling point for having the arena at Lebreton Flats. We can walk to the Trillium Line, but if we can't drive to the Trillium Line???

I would not be surprised if the people who still drive to Lansdowne Park are mostly those who live in the city that don't have easy access to Bank Street and suburban shuttle buses. They are great if you live in Orleans, Kanata, Barrhaven and Greenboro or downtown, but elsewhere?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

The # 97 takes 30 minutes to go from the airport to the Rideau Centre, and one leaves the airport every (roughly) 15 minutes during the day.

My last few 97-from-the-airport experiences have been horrendous. Schedule adherence has been non-existent; buses seem to operate on a load-and-go basis. You just miss one, the following bus may arrive and depart on time. Or not.

[Vixx]

Eliminating the Greenboro station would be a terrible move. South Keys plaza is a long strip and both stops get pretty congested as is at peak hours. It would be a major pain going from the north end of South Keys to the southern station. As well parking is not really an option there (anyone who tries will likely be ticketed). Both stations serve their purpose.

I don't really get the reasoning why the City is so adamant on getting rid of the P&R's. I get that parking lots are usually an eyesore, but we are not talking about keeping some shitty surface parking lots in the core, the lots encourage people to drive to the station and take transit to work, events, nights out etc. I used the Greenboro lot often and I can say right now that if it weren't there, I'd likely have opted to just drive downtown instead of waiting 30 minutes for the former 144 to arrive in the south end and traverse to South Keys/Greenboro. Also I'm having a hard time imagining what would replace a P&R in Greenboro for example; some shitty Claridge condos? Public housing? Realistically it would be nothing even worth following.

Just to throw my opinion out there, I also believe that the airport line will be a major bust but thats just me.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But we expect people to use transit to go to major events in off peak hours. The compromise is that we go to the closest park and ride lot and use transit from there. If there is no park and ride lot, how does it work at all anymore?

I agree. That is a huge hole. There is also people going downtown on the evening and weekends for one of the many festivals or just for a night out. I am not saying I agree with the policy, just explaining why it is there.

Originally Posted by Vixx

I don't really get the reasoning why the City is so adamant on getting rid of the P&R's. I get that parking lots are usually an eyesore, but we are not talking about keeping some shitty surface parking lots in the core, the lots encourage people to drive to the station and take transit to work, events, nights out etc.

It has nothing to do with them being an eyesore. It is the city's misconception that P&R are only used by those who live outside of the Greenbelt and they don't want them to drive through the greenbelt.

A better option IMHO is to do like they do at Baseline for all the P&Rs inside the Greenbelt and charge a fee if you want to park before 11:00am on a weekday. Alternately they could work out a deal with nearby businesses to allow their parking to be used evenings and weekends.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree. That is a huge hole. There is also people going downtown on the evening and weekends for one of the many festivals or just for a night out. I am not saying I agree with the policy, just explaining why it is there.



It has nothing to do with them being an eyesore. It is the city's misconception that P&R are only used by those who live outside of the Greenbelt and they don't want them to drive through the greenbelt.

A better option IMHO is to do like they do at Baseline for all the P&Rs inside the Greenbelt and charge a fee if you want to park before 11:00am on a weekday. Alternately they could work out a deal with nearby businesses to allow their parking to be used evenings and weekends.

The only reason why Baseline charges a fee is because it is adjacent to Algonquin College. There is already a fee at Greenboro to guarantee a space on weekdays because the lot is full on weekdays. I am not sure how you expect the adjacent South Keys Shopping Centre to agree to allow transit parking on their lot when their lot is often full leading up to Christmas on weekends.

It just doesn't work putting up to 700 park and ride cars in a shopping centre parking lot for major events that may conflict with store hours.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The only reason why Baseline charges a fee is because it is adjacent to Algonquin College. There is already a fee at Greenboro to guarantee a space on weekdays because the lot is full on weekdays.

Agreed, but the policy could be extended to keep it available for those travelling off peak when bus service isn't as good.

I am not sure how you expect the adjacent South Keys Shopping Centre to agree to allow transit parking on their lot when their lot is often full leading up to Christmas on weekends.

Obviously it wouldn't work with retail but it could work in locations where the station is adjacent to a business where people work more of a 9-5 shift and the lot is largely empty after hours. The business would obviously want something in return, but it could be cheaper than maintaining a parking lot 24/7.

It could also be a boon for nearby restaurants. Many offer free shuttles to events to patrons. This way the transportation portion is paid for and all they have to provide is parking.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed, but the policy could be extended to keep it available for those travelling off peak when bus service isn't as good.



Obviously it wouldn't work with retail but it could work in locations where the station is adjacent to a business where people work more of a 9-5 shift and the lot is largely empty after hours. The business would obviously want something in return, but it could be cheaper than maintaining a parking lot 24/7.

It could also be a boon for nearby restaurants. Many offer free shuttles to events to patrons. This way the transportation portion is paid for and all they have to provide is parking.

We have been specifically talking about the Greenboro situation. When I have used shuttles there is a fee charged plus you are generally expected to buy dinner there. That doesn't always work for me on a weeknight game when I am already rushed coming from work or when the person who I go to the game with does not want to eat out.

It just seems to me that we are trying to find a way to corrupt the Lansdowne transportation plan and patch together some inadequate alternative in the name of building some expensive condos in a low density part of the city. Who benefits from this? It sounds like all the current residents are the losers.

I see the whole long-term concept for South Keys as unworkable. There is no interest by the city to deliver much better transit to local neighbourhoods, which will be mandatory for a South Keys/Greenboro infill. Otherwise, how do local residents get around and where do they shop? This also applies to the long-term visions for Billings Bridge and Bank Street south. We cannot plan specific key locations in isolation to all the surrounding neighbourhoods that those key locations serve. I have already complained that Bank Street plans do not incorporate transit measures that don't get bogged down by the inevitable heavier traffic. The idea that we should walk some distance to a few rapid transit stops is unacceptable.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We have been specifically talking about the Greenboro situation. When I have used shuttles there is a fee charged plus you are generally expected to buy dinner there. That doesn't always work for me on a weeknight game when I am already rushed coming from work or when the person who I go to the game with does not want to eat out.

Agreed, but who said the event parking has to be at Greenboro specifically. For example, would Confederation/Moonie's Bay be a reasonable alternative? Maybe one of the businesses around their could offer up some parking spaces evenings and weekends with the right incentive.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed, but who said the event parking has to be at Greenboro specifically. For example, would Confederation/Moonie's Bay be a reasonable alternative? Maybe one of the businesses around their could offer up some parking spaces evenings and weekends with the right incentive.

The lack of convenience of those locations means I won't use transit to go to Lansdowne or any other major event downtown. Regardless, it does not address a Lebreton Flats arena, which the Greenboro lot is perfectly set up for. Placing parking 500 metres or more from the transit station is far from ideal.

If it requires almost as much time to reach transit parking as it would normally take to get to your destination, guess what most people will choose to do?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The website doesn't make a mention of that.
http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/south/

Grade separation is a major project.

As Multi-modal mentioned in the Cycling in Ottawa thread, the Roll Plan for the Heron Road separated cycling facilities states: "Trillium Line/Via Rail crossing to be grade separated under Stage 2 LRT" (see bottom left corner of plan).

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...rollmap_en.pdf

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As Multi-modal mentioned in the Cycling in Ottawa thread, the Roll Plan for the Heron Road separated cycling facilities states: "Trillium Line/Via Rail crossing to be grade separated under Stage 2 LRT" (see bottom left corner of plan).

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...rollmap_en.pdf

Thanks.

Weird that they would put it there and make no mention on the stage 2 website (since it is a huge cost).

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As Multi-modal mentioned in the Cycling in Ottawa thread, the Roll Plan for the Heron Road separated cycling facilities states: "Trillium Line/Via Rail crossing to be grade separated under Stage 2 LRT" (see bottom left corner of plan).

http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...rollmap_en.pdf

The city rep at the meeting last night mentioned that it was not a done deal, but that they were planning for the future.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day....

just me still flogging the idea that we could be doing better on this line....

Alstom announces 14 iLint Hydrogen trains for Lower Saxony, Germany, going into service in the 2020-21 timeframe,
with a reported endurance of up to 1000 km. per tank fill, plenty of range for a full day's operation on the Trillium Line.

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2...tter-for-lnvg/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5x...ature=youtu.be
and an earlier video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3bUE9uHkqM

I still think we are a viable line for this tech, esp. if photo-op Jimmy wants to show 'green'.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day....

just me still flogging the idea that we could be doing better on this line....

Alstom announces 14 iLint Hydrogen trains for Lower Saxony, Germany, going into service in the 2020-21 timeframe,
with a reported endurance of up to 1000 km. per tank fill, plenty of range for a full day's operation on the Trillium Line.

http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2...tter-for-lnvg/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5x...ature=youtu.be
and an earlier video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3bUE9uHkqM

I still think we are a viable line for this tech, esp. if photo-op Jimmy wants to show 'green'.

Yeah, some sort of wireless electric solution would work wonders for the Trillium Line as it would allow for electrification with minimal additional infrastructure.. just add charging stations to the yard and boom, done.

In Toronto, all the discussions about GO electrification and the merits of RER has come up with these figures:
-With a heavy-use locomotive (like what GO uses), each stop adds 3 minutes (180 seconds) to travel time
-With a DMU (like the UP train, or the current Trillium line), each stop adds 1.5 minutes (90 seconds) to travel time
-With an EMU (a hypothetical electrified version of the UP or Trillium), each stop adds 1 minute (60 seconds) to travel time

The Trillium line has 5 stations; for the start and end points, only about half the stop penalty counts to travel time (because the train ends there, so passengers only experience one of acceleration or declaration), so let's say the current time added by station stops is roughly 4 * 1.5 = 6 minutes. With electric, it would be 4 * 1 = 4 minutes. So switching to a hydrogen model, or some other form of battery-electric, could cut 2 minutes off the Trillium Line's travel time. And voila.. with 1 minute added per stop, that would cancel out the addition of the Walkley and Gladstone stations!

It's actually one of the most perfect test cases for wireless electric.. it's one of the shortest mainline railways in the world AND it has plenty of dwell time at termini built into its schedule, so its range needs are low and there's plenty of charging time opportunities.