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  #2381  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Scraperdude801 View Post
freeway bridges can be blown up as well. - trains are better for the environment, they ease traffic, combat anti social disorder/ human isolationism, and they are necessary for those who cannot drive for various reasons.
I have heard a lot of fuzzy logic in my day and this one ranks among the worst offenders. Please provide us with some studies (preferably peer reviewed) that show evidence that trains combat antisocial disorders. I love riding TRAX, but what I don't see very often are the passengers chatting it up with all their neighbors. Further, is antisocial behavior created by isolation? I would imagine large crowds could easily exacerbate someones tendency to stay away from groups of people.
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  #2382  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 2:10 PM
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I have heard a lot of fuzzy logic in my day and this one ranks among the worst offenders. Please provide us with some studies (preferably peer reviewed) that show evidence that trains combat antisocial disorders. I love riding TRAX, but what I don't see very often are the passengers chatting it up with all their neighbors. Further, is antisocial behavior created by isolation? I would imagine large crowds could easily exacerbate someones tendency to stay away from groups of people.
West, just because you’ve failed to connect the dots, does not mean my logic is fuzzy. If anything is true, your petty attempt to insult what you don’t understand speaks a great deal more of your short sightedness than it does about my “fuzzy logic”.

Since you asked me for some articles defending my opinion, I have compiled the following for you:
1.
Watching the Traffic Go By: Transportation and Isolation in Urban America. By Paul Mason Fotsch. Austin: University of Texas Press. Pp. xi+240. $55/$22.95.
http://muse.jhu.edu.ezproxy.westmins...1thompson.html
2. Antisocial –unwilling or unable to associate in a normal or friendly way with other people: if you are isolated in your car, you are only able to communicate completely with those in your car. If you are on a train you can communicate with more people hence social vs. anti-social.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti+social

… If you truly want to understand how a car can help isolate you from humanity and lead to all sorts of social problems, then pick up almost any introductory book on Sociology.

You asked me “Further, is antisocial behavior created by isolation?” Seeking isolation is a symptom of anti social behavior, so yes, I argue that having isolation being facilitated by our prime mode of transportation (a car), means that we are enabling the disorder, and can strengthen the disorder in those who suffer from it. Think about people who commute multiple hours to and from work.

You also said “I would imagine large crowds could easily exacerbate someones tendency to stay away from groups of people.” I quite agree that large crowds can be hectic and may make most people want to avoid them, but wouldn’t these crowds be more tolerable if the people in the crowds were more accustomed to being in crowds and could act accordingly so the crowds had more order to them?

Please realize that I am not saying we need to get rid of cars! Nor am I saying that people need to be immersed in a crowd every minute of their day. Personal space, and time are extremely important, but so is human interaction. I am only saying that our mass transit options are severely deficient, and need to be updated for a variety of reasons, and not just because of the claims you attacked. (Some of the reasons I support mass transit are: environmental, socio economic, sustainability, dependability, options in case of a disaster, independance for those with disabilities, etc.)

Last edited by Scraperdude801; May 15, 2010 at 2:21 PM.
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  #2383  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 5:26 PM
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^^^ Agreed! I made a similar argument in a conversation we had a while back about the advantages of living in dense urban housing vs. suburban isolation. Just think about the way kids are developing social skills with each generation being raised with more and more isolationist habits.
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  #2384  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 7:32 PM
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Okay, I'm a little disappointed they didn't paint the headlight surrounds.
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  #2385  
Old Posted May 15, 2010, 10:01 PM
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I'm interested in seeing how the community will develop around light rail. It's not often that you see public transit built before anything else.
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  #2386  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Scraperdude801 View Post
West, just because you’ve failed to connect the dots, does not mean my logic is fuzzy. If anything is true, your petty attempt to insult what you don’t understand speaks a great deal more of your short sightedness than it does about my “fuzzy logic”.

Since you asked me for some articles defending my opinion, I have compiled the following for you:
1.
Watching the Traffic Go By: Transportation and Isolation in Urban America. By Paul Mason Fotsch. Austin: University of Texas Press. Pp. xi+240. $55/$22.95.
http://muse.jhu.edu.ezproxy.westmins...1thompson.html
2. Antisocial –unwilling or unable to associate in a normal or friendly way with other people: if you are isolated in your car, you are only able to communicate completely with those in your car. If you are on a train you can communicate with more people hence social vs. anti-social.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti+social

… If you truly want to understand how a car can help isolate you from humanity and lead to all sorts of social problems, then pick up almost any introductory book on Sociology.

You asked me “Further, is antisocial behavior created by isolation?” Seeking isolation is a symptom of anti social behavior, so yes, I argue that having isolation being facilitated by our prime mode of transportation (a car), means that we are enabling the disorder, and can strengthen the disorder in those who suffer from it. Think about people who commute multiple hours to and from work.

You also said “I would imagine large crowds could easily exacerbate someones tendency to stay away from groups of people.” I quite agree that large crowds can be hectic and may make most people want to avoid them, but wouldn’t these crowds be more tolerable if the people in the crowds were more accustomed to being in crowds and could act accordingly so the crowds had more order to them?

Please realize that I am not saying we need to get rid of cars! Nor am I saying that people need to be immersed in a crowd every minute of their day. Personal space, and time are extremely important, but so is human interaction. I am only saying that our mass transit options are severely deficient, and need to be updated for a variety of reasons, and not just because of the claims you attacked. (Some of the reasons I support mass transit are: environmental, socio economic, sustainability, dependability, options in case of a disaster, independance for those with disabilities, etc.)
Don't assume that since I challenge your assertion I must be making some sort of petty personal attack. I am a big fan of LRT and some other mass transit options, but it doesn't advanced our argument or legitimacy if we use reasons that have weak (yes even fuzzy) logical foundations. If you are arguing that cars enable anti social behavior, then it is a bit more defensible, but if you are saying it partially responsible for the development of the clinical disorder or mass transit is a possible method of treatment, then this is without scientific basis.

Further the article that you quote does not even come close to making this argument. Mr. Fotsch argues that we built our current system as a way to avoid the results of racism and inequality in our society (I think fuzzy too). Also, it should be noted that he is not a sociologist, psychologist or psychiatrist, but a professor of communication studies.

Mass transit is a positive for many reason, just not this one.
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  #2387  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 5:08 PM
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Scraperdude, it was an innocent question on West part. I thought the same thing.

I assumed you were referring to antisocial personality disorder which is basically psychopathy. I had no idea how riding mass transit would cause a psychopath to no longer be a psychopath.

Now I see that you just mean someone who isn't very social would have improved social skills. That is very different from antisocial personality disorder.
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  #2388  
Old Posted May 16, 2010, 6:04 PM
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I have to agree that I never see people talking to strangers on TRAX. Buses are on a different level... usually when I take one, there's no one to strike up a conversation with. I don't think riding mass transit is much of a social experience. I know a few people who have lived in big cities and expressed their feelings that they almost became desensitized to other people, because they're always in a crowd yet feel isolated nonetheless.
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  #2389  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 2:42 AM
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I have to agree that I never see people talking to strangers on TRAX. Buses are on a different level... usually when I take one, there's no one to strike up a conversation with. I don't think riding mass transit is much of a social experience. I know a few people who have lived in big cities and expressed their feelings that they almost became desensitized to other people, because they're always in a crowd yet feel isolated nonetheless.
I think some wildly exaggerate the time most spend alone in the car. I don't think most spend hours a day by themselves. My commute is usually no more than 40 minutes one way. Then when you factor in the fact that many people spend much of that time talking to someone in the car or on their cell phone, this supposed effect is minor at worst. There are plenty of good reasons to support mass transit, we don't need to exaggerate things such as the isolation the car provides. The last idea I will throw out is that it is healthy to have time to think and be alone. I use the car as time to think about my family and life and what I need to do the rest of the day. Frankly that is what I use TRAX for even more. I can sit and think even deeper because I don't have to focus on the road.
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  #2390  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 2:54 AM
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That's an interesting argument regarding social skills and anti-social habits. NYC is known for having some of the most rude, antisocial people.

What about all those farmers that have comprised a large part of human history?
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  #2391  
Old Posted May 17, 2010, 1:52 PM
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That's an interesting argument regarding social skills and anti-social habits. NYC is known for having some of the most rude, antisocial people.

What about all those farmers that have comprised a large part of human history?
Really??? I am from NYC and I know I am not rude, but being a smartypants makes up for it

Last edited by shakman; May 17, 2010 at 6:28 PM.
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  #2392  
Old Posted May 18, 2010, 2:05 AM
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Really??? I am from NYC and I know I am not rude, but being a smartypants makes up for it
Well of course you aren't. But perhaps that's because you're not there anymore?
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  #2393  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 2:45 AM
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Dream Map

Dream Map

I felt like it was time for another Wasatch Front transportation dream map. This time it's 33% more transit friendly!

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  #2394  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 3:25 AM
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I know they've actually talked about this, but wouldn't it be odd to have a belt route that doesn't go around a major city?
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  #2395  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 3:35 AM
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Here is the study and the proposal from the results of the study for your Utah County, "South County belt"

http://provotonebo.com/

There are 3 maps, but 2 are in pdf form so I didn't post any of them.

The south connector map has the old alignment. There were many discussions with the Allreds and the corridor was moved north to avoid disturbing a large portion of their orchard operation. It will not simply clip a small corner on the NE
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  #2396  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:32 AM
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That's an interesting argument regarding social skills and anti-social habits. NYC is known for having some of the most rude, antisocial people.

What about all those farmers that have comprised a large part of human history?
Funny, NYC has this reputation for rudeness, however, while I lived there for 2 years, I found New Yorkers to be some of the nicest and most helpful people I ever experienced living amongst. I find Utahns to be far less friendly than New Yorkers.
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  #2397  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 7:27 AM
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Dream Map

I felt like it was time for another Wasatch Front transportation dream map. This time it's 33% more transit friendly!


Kudos to including mass-transit. However, I don't like it one bit. I think maybe you've never known or experienced life on a human scale, but instead judge distance by how fast and far your car will take you. This looks like a master-plan for sprawl city. We don't have enough water, We don't have enough food. Instead of master-planning for sprawl, how about we master-plan for a tight knit community, both literally and figuratively.
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  #2398  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:03 PM
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I lived in Northeast Portland without a car for 6 months. Doesn't get more "human scale" than that. It was neat, but got really old really fast.

I do believe we need more tight-knit areas, particularly in areas where two trains meet.

But you know we will never see eye-to-eye on the sprawl/growth debate. Until anti-sprawl advocates can convince the State Legislature to put in a growth boundary, I'm going to assume to sprawl will never end.

We need to buy up right-of-way for rail and future freeway before the growth gets there, then require developers to pitch in for the transportation construction costs. The trouble is that NIMBYs and anti-freeway folk make us build the freeway after the homes are in. By then, the developers are long gone.
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  #2399  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 4:20 PM
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Until anti-sprawl advocates can convince the State Legislature to put in a growth boundary, I'm going to assume to sprawl will never end.

We need to buy up right-of-way for rail and future freeway before the growth gets there, then require developers to pitch in for the transportation construction costs. The trouble is that NIMBYs and anti-freeway folk make us build the freeway after the homes are in. By then, the developers are long gone.
The key is cutting the vehicle miles travelled. Cut that in half, and it is the equivalent of taking 50% of the cars of the road. We do not need an urban growth boundary to cut VMT. This can be done by using more compact development, increasing the network for alternative forms of travel, focusing development along existing corridors, change zoning to allow more jobs and other needs closer to where people live, and connecting places together with a multi-modal transportation system. We need to change the way we pay for infrastructure by considering all forms of transportation on a mile for mile basis and on the negative impacts that they create.

NIMBY's force the construction of sprawl. Freeways coming in after the homes are built are the end result. But building the freeways first or at the same time producesthe same outcome.

Anti-freeway folks oppose all freeways in urban areas. They would not support a freeway if it was built before the homes and they would not support a freeway if it was built after.

I agree state legislation is needed, but it has to be along the lines of impact fees. Built 1,000 homes, pay for the impact. State regs limit the total impact fees so that they come nowhere near covering the expense of maintaining or building new facilities, such as parks, schools, libraries, etc. But, if these facilities are in existing corridors, or in mixed use areas, the cost of including them goes down dramatically, which would reduce impact fees and promote more development in these corridors where movement is already easier.
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  #2400  
Old Posted May 19, 2010, 5:08 PM
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I would hate to see that map come to reality. There is nowhere close to that demand. And I don't know why we have to plan for that much sprawl. i-215, I don't get why you are a such a huge freeway/sprawl advocate. That's cool you lived in NE Portland, but apparently you didn't appreciate it, cuz what you are proposing is the antithesis of NE Portland.
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