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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2012, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackRedGold View Post
Well there are several bars and restaurants in the arena. The problem is that they're packed on event nights but deserted on other nights. I don't know if the lands around the rink are zoned for that sort of use. But I think this is much more possible in the future now that the Mattamy development is within walking distance of the rink as well as the upcoming Minto development north of it.
Hadn't really thought of the zoning as part of the problem.

I was just assuming that if locals will drive to Terry Fox Dr. to go to a restaurant outside of an event night, they'd be just as likely to drive to the area around the arena. Of course I'm sure that Scotiabank Plce isn't keen to share any of its parking with potential competitors.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2012, 2:41 AM
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The lack of development around SBP is relating to floodplain mapping, fill, stormwater modelling errors, pumping stations, subwatershed plans.... basically, you don't wanna know
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2012, 3:39 PM
donnelly donnelly is offline
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the valley

Brockville, Kingston and the whole Ottawa Valley become within market "reach" with this location. In terms of geography, but also mental landscape.

Up in the Pontiac I see a lot of advertising - that the Sens are Ottawa and the Valley's team.

+ the East of the city (franco-Ontario) and Quebec side are still heavily influenced by the olden day Habs holdouts still.

So, from a marketing perspective, the Valley and South of town, on the 416 are more ripe for fans.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2012, 3:45 PM
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outstanding, a location that makes it a pain for nearly a million people in the region but brings it closer to the literally tens-of-thousands of people you describe, what a cunning strategy! no one would expect it!
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2012, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by donnelly View Post
Brockville, Kingston and the whole Ottawa Valley become within market "reach" with this location. In terms of geography, but also mental landscape.

Up in the Pontiac I see a lot of advertising - that the Sens are Ottawa and the Valley's team.

+ the East of the city (franco-Ontario) and Quebec side are still heavily influenced by the olden day Habs holdouts still.

So, from a marketing perspective, the Valley and South of town, on the 416 are more ripe for fans.
The 416 didn't exist at that time. And as a French-Canadian studying at a French college in Ottawa; everyone I ever knew from Orleans/Rockland and further east were Sens fans (and one Boston fan).

But ya, majority from Gatineau are still Habs fans.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2012, 9:47 PM
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you got it wrong, Pontiac

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Originally Posted by donnelly View Post
Brockville, Kingston and the whole Ottawa Valley become within market "reach" with this location. In terms of geography, but also mental landscape.

Up in the Pontiac I see a lot of advertising - that the Sens are Ottawa and the Valley's team.

+ the East of the city (franco-Ontario) and Quebec side are still heavily influenced by the olden day Habs holdouts still.

So, from a marketing perspective, the Valley and South of town, on the 416 are more ripe for fans.
French-speaking fans normally have a tendency to support players or teams that they somewhat can identify themselves with. That's why all the Spaniards in the world and all the Italians in the world were supporting either the Spanish or the Italian soccer teams for the Eurocup. You can be french-speaking in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Halifax and still support the Habs and want the Habs to have a french-speaking coach. That's marketing savvy and that's what brings money in to help pay for salaries and expenses as well as making money for the owners.

The Sens are doing the same with getting Marc Methot and Francois Brassard. These guys, as well as being well known home boys and excellent players, are presumably part of a marketing plan to attract new or former fans from across the river and eastern Ontario.

On the same vein but with a different story, the 67's will be playing at SBP while the Lansdowne arena gets rehabilitated. I would think that their fan base is pretty close to the Sens' fan base, except smaller. What will happen if the 67's do so well financially at SBP that, after a few years, it would be economically foolish to come back to Lansdowne Park which is less accessible and has less parking (underground) than at SBP?
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2012, 10:31 PM
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French-speaking fans normally have a tendency to support players or teams that they somewhat can identify themselves with. That's why all the Spaniards in the world and all the Italians in the world were supporting either the Spanish or the Italian soccer teams for the Eurocup. You can be french-speaking in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Halifax and still support the Habs and want the Habs to have a french-speaking coach. That's marketing savvy and that's what brings money in to help pay for salaries and expenses as well as making money for the owners.

The Sens are doing the same with getting Marc Methot and Francois Brassard. These guys, as well as being well known home boys and excellent players, are presumably part of a marketing plan to attract new or former fans from across the river and eastern Ontario.

On the same vein but with a different story, the 67's will be playing at SBP while the Lansdowne arena gets rehabilitated. I would think that their fan base is pretty close to the Sens' fan base, except smaller. What will happen if the 67's do so well financially at SBP that, after a few years, it would be economically foolish to come back to Lansdowne Park which is less accessible and has less parking (underground) than at SBP?
My guess is at some point Melynk will want to bring a major jr team to the Sbp his own team not the 67s.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 2:10 AM
JeffB JeffB is offline
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My guess is at some point Melynk will want to bring a major jr team to the Sbp his own team not the 67s.
He already owns one - the Mississauga St. Michaels Majors. He went to St. Michaels growing up and has an affection for the school - so much so that he kept the tie-in when they moved to the Hershey Centre in Mississauga. So I suspect it will be a long time before he moves the team to Ottawa.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 2:16 AM
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On the same vein but with a different story, the 67's will be playing at SBP while the Lansdowne arena gets rehabilitated. I would think that their fan base is pretty close to the Sens' fan base, except smaller. What will happen if the 67's do so well financially at SBP that, after a few years, it would be economically foolish to come back to Lansdowne Park which is less accessible and has less parking (underground) than at SBP?
Very unlikely to happen. Because Hunt is part of the OSEG group he is committed to the rejuvenation of Lansdowne - specifically on the sports side of the business. So it would make zero sense for him to move the 67's out of the Civic Centre once the construction is done. Playing out at SBP is just a temporary deal while they can't use their preferred arena.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 2:16 AM
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He already owns one - the Mississauga St. Michaels Majors. He went to St. Michaels growing up and has an affection for the school - so much so that he kept the tie-in when they moved to the Hershey Centre in Mississauga. So I suspect it will be a long time before he moves the team to Ottawa.
He just sold the St-Michaels Majors a few months ago.. as for the 67's staying at SBP after the renos are done, not a chance. Jeff Hunt is part of OSEG and will be playing in the reno'd arena essentially rent free in a much better footing with concessions belonging to him etc... it'll be even more of a cash cow for mr. Hunt

Melynk won't be bringing a junior team to SBP the market can't handle a 3rd junior team (67's and olympiques already being there) 4 hockey teams total for this market would be crazy over saturation
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 3:24 AM
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Originally Posted by spotlight View Post
He just sold the St-Michaels Majors a few months ago.. as for the 67's staying at SBP after the renos are done, not a chance. Jeff Hunt is part of OSEG and will be playing in the reno'd arena essentially rent free in a much better footing with concessions belonging to him etc... it'll be even more of a cash cow for mr. Hunt

Melynk won't be bringing a junior team to SBP the market can't handle a 3rd junior team (67's and olympiques already being there) 4 hockey teams total for this market would be crazy over saturation
Not to mention the fact that OHL teams have territories just like NHL teams. The league would never allow another team to move into Ottawa.

The 67s have absolutely no interest in moving permanently for many reasons. First and foremost, at 20,000 seats, SBP is not an appropriate arena for a junior team that draws 7-8000 fans on average. The next biggest arena in the OHL is less than half that size. Also the 67's have no interest in moving that far from their established base. Their central location allows them to compete effectively with the Sens for fans.

In my view, the 67's are likely to do a little worse in attendance at SBP. Being 20-plus km from the downtown core, it is actually much less accessible for the majority of Ottawa hockey fans. Sure they will pick up some new fans in Kanata, but annecdotally from the people I have spoken with, many 67's ticket holders are planning to give up their tickets while the team is out there because they aren't interested in making the drive. I am certainly planning on downgrading my ticket package for that reason.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 4:38 AM
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Originally Posted by spotlight View Post
He just sold the St-Michaels Majors a few months ago.. as for the 67's staying at SBP after the renos are done, not a chance. Jeff Hunt is part of OSEG and will be playing in the reno'd arena essentially rent free in a much better footing with concessions belonging to him etc... it'll be even more of a cash cow for mr. Hunt

Melynk won't be bringing a junior team to SBP the market can't handle a 3rd junior team (67's and olympiques already being there) 4 hockey teams total for this market would be crazy over saturation
I agree with you. The Ottawa market can hardly support a NHL and a Jr. Hockey team. Moreover, the Olympiques are getting a brand new Bob Guertin arena, thanks to the Quebec government.
Melnyk would not bring in a Jr team to compete with the 67's but what he could do is entice Jeff Hunt to jump ship and bring his hockey team over to SBP.

Very few people know much about the OSEG deal. It's all hush-hush and lopsided with three guys with lots and lots of money and power and two other guys with not so much money and not so much power.
When the Renegades folded in 2006, Jeff Hunt thought he had a strong financial angel in a guy named Ernest Anderson who had an outfit called Golden Gates Fund. Turned out Anderson was then under investigation by Ontario Securities for running a Ponzi scheme and bilking millions off pensioners and little old ladies. Hunt is not wealthy enough to take on a CFL franchise on his own, let alone manage one. This is in the Fall of 2006.

That's when Howard Sokolowski, then a co-owner of the Toronto Argonauts had a business talk with John Ruddy about asquiring the Renegades' franchise. Sokolowski had been given the task by CFL to find a suitable buyer for the franchise that had been taken away from the Renegades. Sokolowski and Ruddy met with Jeff Hunt shortly afterwards.

Jeff Hunt was to be a front man and he lobbied Larry O'Brien while watching the 67's together. Bill Shenkman and Roger Greenberg came in afterwards when things looked promising. All of this was related by Jeff Hunt to Maria Cook of the Ottawa Citizen and that interview was published in the Ottawa Citizen in 2009.

The agreement between Ruddy, Shenkman, Greenberg and Hunt was early in 2007, a full year before the subprime maelstrom in the US and the demise of all kinds of big businesses on both sides of the Atlantic. The world economy is still reeling from this made-in-the USA disaster.

That was in 2007 and we are now in 2012 with all the major state economies bleeding massively. In Canada, condos are being built right, left and centre while the eligible buyers are over their heads in debt. The future is not very promising in terms of financial, political and social stability.

How does OSEG fit into this? Not very well.

Nobody is talking but the general feeling is that OSEG is not getting sufficient business and office tenants to satisfy their business plan and to help pay the cost of a CFL venture on which they have already deposited $7M. Jeff Hunt has money but not as much as the three amigos. He put his hockey team in the pot as his share in the money venture.He will be getting his investment back as his share in time-related profit-sharing scheme known as a "waterfall". OSEG will get their $7M CFL deposit early in the sharing process so there is little risk for them. Where Jeff Hunt stands in the "cream-off-the-top" process is not publicly known.

So what happens if the OSEG partnership turns sour? What would happen if Melnyk has a much better offer for Hunt? Money talks. Melnyk has a NHL team, an arena alongside the 417 with lots of parking, a well-established hockey support staff, and lots of cash. That may become very interesting to Hunt if the 67's are successful at SBP, financially as well as on the ice.

Time will tell. We may be in for surprises down the line.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 4:42 AM
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Originally Posted by spotlight View Post
Melynk won't be bringing a junior team to SBP the market can't handle a 3rd junior team (67's and olympiques already being there) 4 hockey teams total for this market would be crazy over saturation
Your underestimationg the originality of Ottawa; do we not have the most water
parks per capita in the world (Mont Cascade, Calypso and soon to open Alottawatta, but yet no amusement parks or aquariums)? Or if waterparks aren't your fancy, what about farmers markets?

-8 in Ottawa*
-12 in suburban/rural Ottawa
-2 in Gatineau
-4 in rural Outaouais

*if thats not enough markets, maybe Sparks can fill the void

http://ottawastart.com/food-markets.php

Obviously a fourth pro/semi-pro hockey team would be stupid, but I wouldn't be suprised.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 4:48 AM
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The 67s have absolutely no interest in moving permanently for many reasons. First and foremost, at 20,000 seats, SBP is not an appropriate arena for a junior team that draws 7-8000 fans on average. The next biggest arena in the OHL is less than half that size.
Is/was the Civic centre the biggest arena in the league (and smallest in the NHL in the early 90s)?
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 9:41 AM
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spotlight
A major jr team can make it work avg 3500 per game now when you have no rent etc you could even make it work with less at the same time getting some maybe making some money.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 1:16 PM
KHOOLE KHOOLE is offline
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Question

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Originally Posted by jaydog0212 View Post
spotlight
A major jr team can make it work avg 3500 per game now when you have no rent etc you could even make it work with less at the same time getting some maybe making some money.
What do you mean "no rent". That's not the way it works!
Jeff Hunt is putting the 67's, valued at $10M, as his share or equity in the OSEG partnership, hoping that he will get a return for his investment sometime within the next 30 years.

True that OSEG is paying $1 a year for 30 years for use of the City's stadium and arena but the partnership "waterfall" does not work as a simple Revenues and Expenditures system. In the "waterfall", all the incomes goes into a big pot and then there is a pecking order about who gets what and when for 30 years, with the City also sharing in the distribution (the land and the stadium being the City's equity in ownership of the hockey, football and soccer teams).

The City of Ottawa will be a co-owner of the sports teams and if the CFL venture is a bust and folds, the City has first refusal to purchase the football team. It may be the same for the 67's.

The OSEG partnership with Ottawa has the venture divided in four sections: sports, retail, office rentals and residential sales. They are separate but are all part of the "waterfall" pot. So Jeff Hunt's 67's, valued at $10M, is a small part of the pot and he may have to wait a long time to get a return on his investment if the 67's are not successful at the renovated arena to be available in two years or more @ Lansdowne.

It's a tricky situation for Jeff Hunt. We have not heard much from him lately.
Wonder what he is thinking about?
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 1:27 PM
jaydog0212 jaydog0212 is offline
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What do you mean "no rent". That's not the way it works!
Jeff Hunt is putting the 67's, valued at $10M, as his share or equity in the OSEG partnership, hoping that he will get a return for his investment sometime within the next 30 years.

True that OSEG is paying $1 a year for 30 years for use of the City's stadium and arena but the partnership "waterfall" does not work as a simple Revenues and Expenditures system. In the "waterfall", all the incomes goes into a big pot and then there is a pecking order about who gets what and when for 30 years, with the City also sharing in the distribution (the land and the stadium being the City's equity in ownership of the hockey, football and soccer teams).

The City of Ottawa will be a co-owner of the sports teams and if the CFL venture is a bust and folds, the City has first refusal to purchase the football team. It may be the same for the 67's.

The OSEG partnership with Ottawa has the venture divided in four sections: sports, retail, office rentals and residential sales. They are separate but are all part of the "waterfall" pot. So Jeff Hunt's 67's, valued at $10M, is a small part of the pot and he may have to wait a long time to get a return on his investment if the 67's are not successful at the renovated arena to be available in two years or more @ Lansdowne.

It's a tricky situation for Jeff Hunt. We have not heard much from him lately.
Wonder what he is thinking about?
By no rent am talking about Melynk and a major jr team that why you see teams work well in Calgary and Edmonton.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 1:30 PM
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Is/was the Civic centre the biggest arena in the league (and smallest in the NHL in the early 90s)?
I believe that London is slightly bigger, but it's definitely #1 or 2.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 1:46 PM
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Sorry, somehow managed a triple post.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2012, 1:46 PM
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