Ottawa on the Cusp of Greatness?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Ottawa - on the cusp of adequacy.

Mediocre to adequate. That's the best way of putting it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by On Edge

My point exactly. Corruption and wealth notwithstanding, Athens is a city in which people live among a living culture and have quite different priorities from us here in Ottawa. It has monumental and historical stuff galore, an intense public and social life, and it is a city that works despite the blows it has taken and the sometimes difficult procedures for getting stuff done (a European thing, it seems).

The reaction to my comment about Ottawa vs. well, just about anywhere else shows me the reason why Ottawa is as it is. Here we crave comfort and the sense that things do not change. The sense that we live in a "nice" place that is "safe" to "raise kids" etc. Nothing too "weird" happens here.

When visitors have come from abroad they are usually taken aback at the provinciality of the place first. Followed by a sense of dismay which settles into a kind of neutral disappointment.

Some of your observations are on the mark but I've taken a lot of international visitors to Ottawa in my lifetime and the vast, vast majority of them were not disappointed or critical. Most were actually pretty pleasantly surprised as they did not have many expectations about the city. They of course knew that it wasn't the largest city in the country (in addition to being the capital) so they didn't expect it to be some grand Canadian showcase city.

People tended to be more disappointed by certain other Canadian cities (relative to expectations), but not Ottawa.

[eternallyme]

I have this theory:

Since the GTA is quickly becoming so expensive that companies are about to be priced out of and residents are pretty much priced out of, should Ottawa introduce tax and hydro incentives to move businesses?

Consider that a detached house in Ottawa is often cheaper than a high-rise condo in Toronto these days...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I have this theory:

Since the GTA is quickly becoming so expensive that companies are about to be priced out of and residents are pretty much priced out of, should Ottawa introduce tax and hydro incentives to move businesses?

Consider that a detached house in Ottawa is often cheaper than a high-rise condo in Toronto these days...

Ottawa could benefit, but places like Hamilton, K-C-W, and Barrie seem more obvious choices, especially with better rail links on the horizon.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Ottawa could benefit, but places like Hamilton, K-C-W, and Barrie seem more obvious choices, especially with better rail links on the horizon.

They are likely to be out of price range too, and would rise first. London, Sarnia and Windsor would be the main benefactors in the southwest, and Sudbury and North Bay in the north, along with Ottawa and Kingston in the east.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

They are likely to be out of price range too, and would rise first. London, Sarnia and Windsor would be the main benefactors in the southwest, and Sudbury and North Bay in the north, along with Ottawa and Kingston in the east.

Could be. I tend to see a future of people commuting in an out of the GTA to satellite cities that are relatively close, at least for the foreseeable future, as opposed to a big uptick in the growth of cities further away. In the case of K-C-W, we're actually seeing something of a reverse phenomenon - young people living in the "big city" and commuting to K-W for work. Housing costs notwithstanding the pull of the big city seems to be pretty strong.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Could be. I tend to see a future of people commuting in an out of the GTA to satellite cities that are relatively close, at least for the foreseeable future, as opposed to a big uptick in the growth of cities further away. In the case of K-C-W, we're actually seeing something of a reverse phenomenon - young people living in the "big city" and commuting to K-W for work. Housing costs notwithstanding the pull of the big city seems to be pretty strong.

I know there have been some newspaper stories about the "reverse commuters" who live in Toronto and work in Waterloo Region, but I have my doubts about the magnitude of that phenomenon. Who in their right mind is going to spend 4 hours of their day in transit? I'm guessing that any who do will be doing it for a very short period of time. Given that there is no prospect of quicker rail service in the next 10-15 years, I can't see a trend developing. And as noted, house prices start to get much higher as soon as you get within "reasonable" commuting range.

I think Ottawa has a big advantage over satellite cities around the GTA in terms of offering a real urban alternative (with all due apologies to Hamilton) and standard of living that could be very attractive to companies. An incentive strategy to bring companies here is definitely something that has some merit.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

I know there have been some newspaper stories about the "reverse commuters" who live in Toronto and work in Waterloo Region, but I have my doubts about the magnitude of that phenomenon. Who in their right mind is going to spend 4 hours of their day in transit? I'm guessing that any who do will be doing it for a very short period of time. Given that there is no prospect of quicker rail service in the next 10-15 years, I can't see a trend developing. And as noted, house prices start to get much higher as soon as you get within "reasonable" commuting range.

I think Ottawa has a big advantage over satellite cities around the GTA in terms of offering a real urban alternative (with all due apologies to Hamilton) and standard of living that could be very attractive to companies. An incentive strategy to bring companies here is definitely something that has some merit.

The last I saw any figures, a couple of years back, 15,000 people a day were commuting K-C-W to GTA and 9,000 were commuting GTA to K-C-W. I know a number of the local high tech companies run shuttle buses for their employees. Given that much of this "reverse commuting" relates to the high tech sector, I suspect that many of these people do not need to commute on a daily basis.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The last I saw any figures, a couple of years back, 15,000 people a day were commuting K-C-W to GTA and 9,000 were commuting GTA to K-C-W. I know a number of the local high tech companies run shuttle buses for their employees. Given that much of this "reverse commuting" relates to the high tech sector, I suspect that many of these people do not need to commute on a daily basis.

You are probably right about not needing to commute on a daily basis.

I have seen those general GTA numbers before. The number of people jamming up the 401 each morning never fails to astound me. Is there any breakdown of where in the GTA the people are coming from? I can see the commute numbers being significant from the west side of the GTA to Kitchener, but I would have to think that it is a very small fraction of those 9000 people who are coming from central Toronto. Company shuttle bus or no, that is still a 4 hour commute.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by phil235

I know there have been some newspaper stories about the "reverse commuters" who live in Toronto and work in Waterloo Region, but I have my doubts about the magnitude of that phenomenon. Who in their right mind is going to spend 4 hours of their day in transit? I'm guessing that any who do will be doing it for a very short period of time. Given that there is no prospect of quicker rail service in the next 10-15 years, I can't see a trend developing. And as noted, house prices start to get much higher as soon as you get within "reasonable" commuting range.

I think Ottawa has a big advantage over satellite cities around the GTA in terms of offering a real urban alternative (with all due apologies to Hamilton) and standard of living that could be very attractive to companies. An incentive strategy to bring companies here is definitely something that has some merit.

Ottawa will probably start pulling people in soon, but I think it will mostly have to wait a while. Places like Hamilton and Brantford are still pretty cheap, with loads of room for densification and a proximity to Toronto.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

You are probably right about not needing to commute on a daily basis.

I have seen those general GTA numbers before. The number of people jamming up the 401 each morning never fails to astound me. Is there any breakdown of where in the GTA the people are coming from? I can see the commute numbers being significant from the west side of the GTA to Kitchener, but I would have to think that it is a very small fraction of those 9000 people who are coming from central Toronto. Company shuttle bus or no, that is still a 4 hour commute.

Logic would dictate that the bulk of the daily commuter traffic is between Cambridge and the west side of the GTA. For the young high tech types, the impression is always that they want to stay in the centre of Toronto, but I don't know. For someone in a secure position to choose to stay in the Toronto suburbs rather than settling down in K-W would seem a bit puzzling, although the dating pool is certainly better in Toronto!

[eternallyme]

I'd be curious to see, once the GGH is maxed out, how Ottawa would compare in pull, to say, the southwestern cities like Windsor and London? the northern cities like Sudbury and North Bay?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I'd be curious to see, once the GGH is maxed out, how Ottawa would compare in pull, to say, the southwestern cities like Windsor and London? the northern cities like Sudbury and North Bay?

To my mind, it would be next in the cue, although a London linked to K-C-W and Toronto by HSR would have some pull, I would think. I could be totally wrong about this, but the City of Ottawa (municipal government) has always seemed to me a bit lazy about economic development compared to what we see down here.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I'd be curious to see, once the GGH is maxed out, how Ottawa would compare in pull, to say, the southwestern cities like Windsor and London? the northern cities like Sudbury and North Bay?

I don't think that Windsor, Sudbury or North Bay would ever be serious challenges to Ottawa for business or talent. Those are all net out-flow places. London is a possible alternative, as its housing is relatively cheap and the workforce is quiet educated, but the distance is starting to be pretty significant.

HSR would definitely be a boon for London but a) I think it goes there after Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa and b) that means we will all be very, very old before it is a factor here.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To my mind, it would be next in the cue, although a London linked to K-C-W and Toronto by HSR would have some pull, I would think. I could be totally wrong about this, but the City of Ottawa (municipal government) has always seemed to me a bit lazy about economic development compared to what we see down here.

I think the main reason that Ottawa doesnt really try to attract employers is because of the number of public service and military employees in the area. I mean DND alone has 10000 people working in the NCR making over 50k a year, so it doesnt seem like there was much of a need to attract private business. Now the city should really be looking at getting private business because of all the lay-offs and the hiring freeze from the feds.

To make Ottawa great we should try to minimize development outside the greenbelt as much as possible and once the interior is at breaking point move development back out to the suburbs, the density would increase walkability, transit, infrastructure and likely reduce the number of commuters in a single vehicle. I mean, look at how many places built in the 50s and 60s that are probably at the end of their lifespan that are just ripe for redevelopment. But alas, City Council is not motiviated to change the status quo.