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  #1141  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2009, 1:26 PM
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i'm ready for them to build the cheapest, most offending lowrise building there and wait out all of this nonsense until everyone is literally begging for the moma tower
     
     
  #1142  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2009, 1:39 PM
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http://www.nypost.com/p/news/busines...OkruixIsT3pQ5N

Big stall over MoMA tower

By STEVE CUOZZO
October 20, 2009


IS Hines deliberately an gling to stall on its controversial, Jean Nouvel-designed tower next to the Museum of Modern Art, and blame the city for the delay?

Hines, one of the world's largest developers, and Nouvel have clammed up. So it isn't entirely unreasonable to speculate that they're in no rush to build the asymmetrically contoured condo/hotel/museum tower next door to MoMA on West 53rd Street -- which city Planning Commissioner Amanda Burden held to a mere 1,050 feet in height despite Hines' plea to make it 200 feet taller.
At this point, I really wouldn't mind if they decided to shelve the tower for now, get some new blood in Planning and the Council. The whole episode with CPC was a little strange.
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  #1143  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2009, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by philvia View Post
i'm ready for them to build the cheapest, most offending lowrise building there and wait out all of this nonsense until everyone is literally begging for the moma tower
Nobody (except for the skyscraper people here) in the city would ever beg for a tower. They don't like towers. They would never beg for one.

They would rather have a short ugly building instead of a tall beautiful one. We've been through this before. Why don't you guys ever get it?

They hate TALL in this city.
     
     
  #1144  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
They hate TALL in this city.
Most people in the city don't care one way or the other, and most don't have a problem with tall buildings going up in Manhattan, because that's where the tall buildings are. It's the Manhattan NIMBY that has the gall. But they've been given the power by the City, so you can't really fault them for using it.


http://www.artsjournal.com/culturegr...fends_mom.html

MeTube: Glenn Lowry Defends MoMA

While we await the next stage (back today to the City Planning Commission) in the MoMA Monster's journey through New York City's convoluted government approval process, let's have a return engagement today of the CultureGrrl Channel's video star, the Museum of Modern Art's director, Glenn Lowry.

You can watch him argue for the benefits to MoMA of Jean Nouvel's Empire State Building-height tower (now downsized to mere Chrysler Building height) at the hearing of a City Council subcommittee of its Land Use Committee that occurred two weeks ago. That's Lowry on the left, the project's attorney Michael Sillerman on the right. Once you roll 'em, you'll also see architect Nouvel, left.

Video Link
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  #1145  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Most people in the city don't care one way or the other, and most don't have a problem with tall buildings going up in Manhattan, because that's where the tall buildings are. It's the Manhattan NIMBY that has the gall. But they've been given the power by the City, so you can't really fault them for using it.
You obviously don't follow development in the other boroughs. Some of the worst height-hating NIMBYs are in the outerboroughs. NIMBYs by definition are people that are against something in their backyard.

Manhattan NIMBYs only care about Manhattan projects. Brooklyn NIMBYs only about Brooklyn and Queens NIMBYs about Queens and so on.

Of course Brooklyn NIMBYs aren't going to "care one way or the other" about something where they don't live.

The whole city has NIMBYs. You only think the Manhattan ones are the worst because that's where most of the news is but they fight development in just about every neighborhood in the other boroughs.
     
     
  #1146  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 12:36 AM
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Don't be foolish.

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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
You obviously don't follow development in the other boroughs. Some of the worst height-hating NIMBYs are in the outerboroughs. NIMBYs by definition are people that are against something in their backyard.
This is your statement:

Quote:
They hate TALL in this city.
And that's not true. People generally don't care one way or the other, and most New Yorkers don't care that tall buildings are built in Manhattan, because that's where the tall buildings are. Obviously people in neighborhoods that don't have tall buildings would be more opposed to putting one there, but in that context, most New Yorkers don't have a problem with tall, as long as it's where the tall buildings are.
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  #1147  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 12:50 AM
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Don't be foolish.
I am foolish because I am right and you are wrong, right?

Quote:
This is your statement
Yes that is my statement and it is true. You have yet to disprove it. I can find you a ton of projects throughout this city that had opponents because "they were too tall or large" or the height did not fit in with what is there. It is all about height (and size).

Quote:
And that's not true. People generally don't care one way or the other, and most New Yorkers don't care that tall buildings are built in Manhattan, because that's where the tall buildings are.
Why are you repeating this over again and who are these "most New Yorkers?"

If by "most New Yorkers" you are talking about people in the rest of the city, then I've already told you why they don't care: they don't live near where a tall building is proposed but as soon as something taller than what the rest of the block is proposed in their neighborhood, then they care and yes they would be very much against it as well.

Quote:
New Yorkers don't have a problem with tall, as long as it's where the tall buildings are.
You still don't get it do you? Re-read what I wrote just above.
     
     
  #1148  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
I am foolish because I am right and you are wrong, right?
I'm not going to do this NIMBY dance with you, but it's foolish because of what you suggest. Obviously there are NIMBYs everywhere. But again, here is your statement:

Quote:
They hate TALL in this city.
And that is simply not true. I'm continuosly talking to people about tall buildings, and most don't have a problem with tall in the city. It's a matter of where the buildings are built. It's your own statement that you need to clarify.
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  #1149  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 1:09 AM
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Why don't you get it? Maybe you get it but are too stubborn or egotistical to admit you are wrong?

Those people you talk to are not going to be against tall buildings where they don't live. For example, if they live in Chelsea, you think they care about a tall tower on the Upper East Side?

Likewise, someone on the Upper East Side is not going to care about a tall building Downtown.

My statement does not need clarification. People throughout this city are against tall buildings because wherever you want to build something tall, whether it is in a place where there are tall buildings already or not, there will be people against it. That means that people throughout the city are against tall buildings.

It's always been about the height. You are ignorant if you don't already know that by now.
     
     
  #1150  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 2:54 AM
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LOL, here it is just today in the Post: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...1wsUFaHweYErxM

I don't make this stuff up. If you've ever been to Sunset Park Brooklyn, there is nothing but 2-4 stories there and yet they feel the need to downzone and limit the height of buildings there. (Oh and don't say this was done only by City Planning as they are into taking the "community's input" into everything they do. People tell them they don't like buildings that are tall there, they listen.)

If you were to ask the New Yorkers there if they care about an 8000 foot tower in Manhattan they're going to tell you they don't care either but the minute you propose to build 8 stories in Sunset Park, watch out. It will be too big and too out of scale. LOL.

Trust me NYGuy when I tell you the people in this city don't like tall or large buildings. They just care more about it when it's near them.

I wish it wasn't so but unfortunately it is.
     
     
  #1151  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 3:20 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
And that is simply not true. I'm continuosly talking to people about tall buildings, and most don't have a problem with tall in the city. It's a matter of where the buildings are built. It's your own statement that you need to clarify.
No one else in any other cities really complains about tall buildings cities that already have loads of highrises that is)


So is it safe to say this building is just about canceled? They can't build it at 1050 feet and their not allowed to build it at 1250 feet, how would it possibly get built then?
     
     
  #1152  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 6:05 AM
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Geez. I've just learned that planning delays cause silly name-calling.
     
     
  #1153  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 6:21 AM
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I never did like this building. I think NY can get something better.
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  #1154  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Why don't you get it? Maybe you get it but are too stubborn or egotistical to admit you are wrong?

Those people you talk to are not going to be against tall buildings where they don't live. For example, if they live in Chelsea, you think they care about a tall tower on the Upper East Side?
I'm not going to waste anymore space in this thread with this NIMBY nonsense. The fact is, you made a statement that is not true.

Quote:
They hate TALL in this city.
In your anti-nimby hysteria, you haven't realized yet that your wording is incorrect. The fact is, people in the City don't hate tall buildings. Most don't know the difference between an 800 ft building, and a 1200 ft buliding. Obviously people in lowrise neighborhoods wouldn't want a tower there. Believe it or not, skyscrapers are inappropriate in the vast majority of city neighborhoods. But build them where they are, or where they belong and the vast majority don't care how tall they are.

Send me a PM if you still have trouble.
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  #1155  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2009, 1:23 PM
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http://www.artsjournal.com/culturegr..._for_moma.html

Only Two More Hurdles for the MoMA Monster: City Council and the Economy


NY Assemblyman Richard Gottfried, would-be slayer of the MoMA Monster


By Lee Rosenbaum
October 21, 2009

At its review session Monday, New York's City Planning Commission gave its go-ahead for Jean Nouvel's MoMA/Hines tower, as modified by the City Council's Land Use Committee. The project still needs to be approved by the full City Council, which may well happen at its Oct. 28 meeting.

The full Council almost never goes against the decision of its Land Use Committee, which on Oct. 8 approved a somewhat shortened version of the proposed tower (1,025 feet high, instead of 1,250 feet). This means that the strong, vocal protests of the neighbors, the neighbors' City Councilman (Daniel Garodnick), the Community Board, and both the State Senator and State Assemblyman (Liz Krueger and Richard Gottfried, respectively) who represent the Manhattan district of the MoMA/Hines site are likely to be unavailing.

The bottom line is that this building---now reduced to the height of the Chrysler Building instead of the Empire State Building---is still way too tall for the small footprint of its midblock site. As Assemblyman Gottfried declared in a statement submitted to the City Council's Subcommittee on Zoning and Franchises:

Unlike other skyscrapers, the MoMA/Hines site is not on a wide avenue or a wide crosstown street; it is mid-block on a narrow mixed-use side street with its back on a residential street [W. 54th St.].

No other New York art museums seem to feel compelled to accompany their expansions with tall commercial structures that are out of character with their immediate surroundings, not to mention with the proper pursuits of nonprofit cultural institutions. If the MoMA Monster gets built, the Museum of Modern Art (whose current chairman is real estate mega-developer Jerry Speyer) will have violated the lowrise character of its midtown side street three times---the Cesar Pelli-designed Museum Tower luxury apartment building; the Yoshio Taniguchi-designed office building; and now, Jean Nouvel's Tower Verre.

These may have been clever financial deals, but MoMA's erections notwithstanding, the commercial real estate business is not a compatible fit with the mission of museums. As David Penick, managing partner for developer Hines on this project, previously told me, the Nouvel tower won't begin construction until financial conditions in the real estate industry improve. This means that MoMA's expansion, dependent upon Hines' construction, could be stalled for a long time.

In the meantime, maybe the museum can use that empty lot (which it has sold to Hines for $125 million) for a few more innovative architecture exhibitions, like this one:


MoMA's 2008 Home Delivery exhibition, on the site of the proposed Nouvel tower
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  #1156  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2009, 12:25 AM
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This has to be one of the best towers i have ever seen proposed for New York city. It truly seems to embody the dark side that Gotham once seemed like to everyone. I hope that it gets built to its full height and granduer whether here of somewhere else in Manhattan. Also I believe that anti nimby and NY guy both have valid points and that each should respect the others opinion and drop the argument so we can wish togehter that this tower will be built
     
     
  #1157  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2009, 2:32 AM
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Thumbs down This tower is done for

http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=...ry&story=33768

MoMA/Hines Development:
Reject Proposal for 1,050 Foot Tower
Testimony before the New York City Council,
Subcommittee on Zoning & Franchises
City Hall
Tuesday, October 6, 2009

I am Assembly Member Richard N. Gottfried. I represent the 75th Assembly District in Manhattan, which includes Chelsea, Hell’s Kitchen, Murray Hill, and parts of the Upper West Side and Midtown, including the area where the MoMA/Hines building at 53 West 53rd Street is proposed.

A building of this magnitude on a mid-block location immediately adjacent to a historic residential neighborhood violates the basic principles of New York City zoning and good urban planning. It should not be allowed.

In order to permit the transfer of development rights to 53 West 53rd Street from the two landmarks, the University Club and St. Thomas Church, the City Planning Commission has approved special permits under §74-711 and §74-79.

St. Thomas Church, an individual landmark in good condition, applied for a special permit under §74-711 to sell all 275,000 square feet of its air rights, arguing that the preservation plan it is currently undertaking satisfies the findings required by the zoning code. If St. Thomas Church wants to upgrade the building, it should do what congregations do, and turn to its members.

The University Club applied for a special permit under §74-79 to sell all 136,000 square feet of its air rights, presenting a preservation plan which also falls short of demonstrating financial need. Neither landmark is in danger of deterioration, or has a stated lack of resources. It is wrong for the church and the University Club to finance their operations by imposing the burden of the MoMA/Hines building on its neighbors.

Community Board 5 reports that both are currently in good condition with ongoing maintenance plans. There is no “burden” that needs to be relieved and no landmark preservation purpose to be served by the air rights sale.

However, there is substantial public burden resulting from the excessive height and density, shadows, traffic, and other impacts the proposed tower will impose on the community. While the Environmental Impact Study asserts no “significant adverse effect” of shadows from the MoMA/Hines tower, that is preposterous.

The building, as originally proposed, would have been 1250 feet high. The City Planning Commission has required that the height be reduced by 200 feet to 1,050 feet. However, the proposed tower remains far too tall – indeed, as tall as the Chrysler Building, , making it one of the tallest buildings in New York City. Unlike other skyscrapers, the MoMA/Hines site is not on a wide avenue or a wide cross-town street; it is mid-block on a narrow mixed-use side street with its back on a residential street.

A §74-711 permit also required a finding that the building will relate harmoniously to the transferring landmark. Some might claim that because of the distance between the development site and the landmark, the harmoniousness standard was met.

The harmful impact the tower will have on St. Thomas Church and the surrounding area is substantial despite the distance between the tower and the landmark. It is shocking to think that a building of this size can be put up near this landmark church simply because, when standing next to the church, you cannot see the top of the tower without craning your neck. That is not the limit of the adverse impacts. The proposed Tower would dwarf the landmarked CBS Building and would loom above the eight individually landmarked historic buildings on 54tth Street.

With respect to the University Club, the zoning text is clear. There must be a preservation plan that benefits the landmark without adding burden on the community. Fifty-third Street is characterized by low-rise mixed-use development. The MoMA/Hines plan is inconsistent with and degrades this character.

Traffic and pedestrian impacts are important and relevant to the weighing of advantages and disadvantages under Section 74-711, and they should be taken into account under the State Environmental Quality Review Act and the City regulations implementing that statute.

A building of this magnitude will dramatically increase vehicular and pedestrian traffic. If the permits are approved, MoMA/Hines must present a substantial plan for significant mitigation for this increased traffic.

Currently, the MoMA foot patrol and line regulators cannot do enough to moderate the throng of pedestrians that clog the sidewalk, thus preventing residents from easily accessing their homes and others from using the street. With an increase in tourist traffic at MoMA, especially Friday evenings when the museum offers free admission, more queuing should take place inside the building.

The adverse impacts need not be so traumatic. The community has indicated that it would be willing to live with a tower up to the height of the CBS Building – 490 feet. This would provide the developer with much of the FAR it is seeking while also allowing significant financial benefits to flow to St. Thomas and the University Club through the transfers of a portion of their air rights. The return would be a more contextual building: still massive, but no longer overhanging and overwhelming the adjacent neighborhoods.

Not-for-profit organizations and cultural institutions are increasingly trying to make use of their air rights to build residential or commercial towers that undermine landmark, historic district, and zoning regulations. This trend is detrimental to communities and should be resisted by community boards, City agencies, and the City Council.

I urge the Council to reject the proposed 1,050 foot tower.
     
     
  #1158  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2009, 2:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=...ry&story=33768

MoMA/Hines Development:
Reject Proposal for 1,050 Foot Tower
Testimony before the New York City Council,
Subcommittee on Zoning & Franchises
City Hall
Tuesday, October 6, 2009
This is nothing new. He's always been against the tower. The Council will approve the 1050 ft version the Council's Land Use Committee already approved.
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  #1159  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2009, 4:41 AM
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I urge the Council to reject the proposed 1,050 foot tower.

I urge the Council to approve this tower at its original height of 1,250 ft.
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  #1160  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2009, 4:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
This is nothing new. He's always been against the tower. The Council will approve the 1050 ft version the Council's Land Use Committee already approved.

yea but hines/nouvel already said they refuse to build the 1050 foot version, because sensibly it would not be as economical.

they won't let them build it at 1250 so that means the building is canceled... how is it not?

it's basic 3rd grade logic
     
     
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