The 5 Biggest U.S. Infrastructure Projects Plus 5 at Risk

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Second Avenue Subway isn't "in limbo". It's fully funded and opening in 3-4 years.

The MTAs' current five-year budget fully funds the completion of Second Avenue Subway and East Side Access, and begins the East Bronx Metro North rail line and LIRR Main Line expansion.

Phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway is funded and will be opening in 4-5 years. The point of the article is that Phases 2, 3, 4 are not yet funded. I don't see any solidly established start date for Phase 2 to 125th St, which will use existing tunnels from previous Second Avenue subway attempts, so it should go more quickly whenever they start on it.

A major issue that delayed the start of boring out the tunnels was utility relocation which was much more difficult and took far longer than originally planned. They are also having to shore up building foundations and had to bore through rock rather than use blasting in one place. Utility relocation is a common problem for infrastructure projects these days as they run into utility & communication lines and pipes that are not on the official maps or not where they are supposed to be. Drives the cost up considerabbly if everything else has to be delayed before major digging can start.

The Silver Line in Northern VA was slowed at the start because of utility relocation including communication lines that were not on the maps, because the lines were intentionally not on any public maps.

The article loses major points by not including the East Side Access project. It is a $6+ billion dollar project, roughly equal to the price tag for the complete Silver Line project in Virginia. Maybe they did not want to cover two NYC projects in one article?

[yankeesfan1000]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

...The article loses major points by not including the East Side Access project. It is a $6+ billion dollar project, roughly equal to the price tag for the complete Silver Line project in Virginia. Maybe they did not want to cover two NYC projects in one article?

That was the first project that came to mind when I saw the title of this thread.

Here's a dumb question about Phase 2 of the SAS, the MTA currently has a handful of huge capital projects it's currently undertaking, 7 train extension, Phase I of SAS, East Side Access, and Fulton St, when those are done obviously money will be freed up, will it be easier to tackle the second phase of the SAS? I know they're really trying to pay off a lot of old debt that has much higher interest rates than their more recent debt issuances have, so when all of those projects are done over the next 4-5 years will it be easier for them to fund Phase 2?

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by shadyunltd

The SAS is significantly longer than the Jubilee extension and is being built under far more valuable real estate (in fact, most valuable in the world), whereas Jubilee was built under South London and East London for the most part.

And that £3.5bn figure was a 1999 figure.

Is the $4.5 billion for more than the 2 miles listed, then? Because the Jubilee extension was MUCH longer than 2 miles, and at least part of it (Green Park to Waterloo) was under extremely central (i.e. extremely valuable) parts of London, and included a difficult reconstruction of Westminster station AND a river crossing.

The Jubilee line extension may have been nearly twice the cost of the SAS, but it strikes me as being much better value for money if the SAS is really only the 2 miles and 3 stations given in the article - considering the Jubilee extension consisted of 8 deep level stations, 3 surface stations, and was 10 miles in length.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

Is the $4.5 billion for more than the 2 miles listed, then? Because the Jubilee extension was MUCH longer than 2 miles, and at least part of it (Green Park to Waterloo) was under extremely central (i.e. extremely valuable) parts of London, and included a difficult reconstruction of Westminster station AND a river crossing.

The Jubilee line extension may have been nearly twice the cost of the SAS, but it strikes me as being much better value for money if the SAS is really only the 2 miles and 3 stations given in the article - considering the Jubilee extension consisted of 8 deep level stations, 3 surface stations, and was 10 miles in length.

The SAS phase 1 & 2 is 6 stations with 600,000 riders. Phase 1 is expected to take 200,000 off the over congested Lexington Avenue line. Every station counts as the Lex line is over capacity....

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

Here's a dumb question about Phase 2 of the SAS, the MTA currently has a handful of huge capital projects it's currently undertaking, 7 train extension, Phase I of SAS, East Side Access, and Fulton St, when those are done obviously money will be freed up, will it be easier to tackle the second phase of the SAS? I know they're really trying to pay off a lot of old debt that has much higher interest rates than their more recent debt issuances have, so when all of those projects are done over the next 4-5 years will it be easier for them to fund Phase 2?

When these megaprojects wrap up, MTA will have a very large debt load. The term debt bomb is used. Others know far more about the overall state of the NYC subway system, but a SAS Phase 2 project will have to contend with funding for maintenance, repairs, signal u[grades and fixing up the crumbling stations in the system. The project to run some Metro-North New Haven & Hudson line trains to Penn Station will cost a billion or more from the ballpark figures I've seen. On other hand, a billion is modest, if not small potatoes compared to the combined cost of the current MTA megaprojects. The MTA may need to take a breather for a few years on big new projects to manage the debt. Depending on what it costs, I gather SAS Phase 2 is considered likely to get started after Phase 1 is done. But the time line for Phases 3 & 4 is anyone's guess.

What happens with the infrastructure projects that are planned but not funded in the next decade will depend very much on what happens at the federal level for support of transit funding.

[M II A II R II K]

If they have a debt load it would be offset by keeping more people moving and better to keep the economy flowing.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

The project to run some Metro-North New Haven & Hudson line trains to Penn Station will cost a billion or more from the ballpark figures I've seen.

This is beyond the pale. There's no new heavy construction - just a few infill stations in the Bronx and some trackwork/signaling. The rights-of-way, overpasses, tunnels, and everything else already exists.

I guess the infill stations on the UWS might cost some serious change since they're in a tunnel...

What's the likelihood of the two lines running into Penn being through-routed, so you'd have New Haven trains running to Poughkeepsie via Penn?

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This is beyond the pale. There's no new heavy construction - just a few infill stations in the Bronx and some trackwork/signaling. The rights-of-way, overpasses, tunnels, and everything else already exists.

I guess the infill stations on the UWS might cost some serious change since they're in a tunnel...

What's the likelihood of the two lines running into Penn being through-routed, so you'd have New Haven trains running to Poughkeepsie via Penn?

The tracks may be there, but you have to think about the capacity required to add a commuter service to lines which only carry intercity Amtrak trains.

The Empire connector down the west side is single tracked across the Spuyten Duyvil bridge and then through the connecting tunnel into the Penn Station bathtub. The connector also has a single track branching off of the Hudson line. Amtrak and Metro-North may need to add a second Empire tunnel into Penn station.

The Hells Gate line has 2 tracks, but they may have to add a 3rd track for the Metro-North trains and station stops. The NEC Infrastructure Master Plan discusses the plans for Metro-North New Haven line trains but notes that adding a 3rd track might impede Amtrak's plan for curve reduction and speed increases on the line. Replacing the movable Pelham River bridge with a higher fixed span bridge with track speed improvements for a 4-5? mile stretch around it is high up on Amtrak's NEC upgrade priority list. Amtrak may want the bridge to be replaced before Metro-North starts clogging up their tracks. Amtrak is not going to be happy with Metro-North New Haven Line trains running to Penn Station if they slow down the NYC to Boston trip times by 5 or 10 minutes.

There is an engineering study underway on defining the improvements and new stations for Metro-North Hudson and New Haven service into Penn Station. Have not heard when the report from that study will be released.

[mhays]

Sometimes the existence of right of way makes things even harder, not easier. It can mean going to great lengths to protect existing service. If it's a new ROW, land aq can be tough, but once you have it you might have free reign.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

The tracks may be there, but you have to think about the capacity required to add a commuter service to lines which only carry intercity Amtrak trains.

The Empire connector down the west side is single tracked across the Spuyten Duyvil bridge and then through the connecting tunnel into the Penn Station bathtub. The connector also has a single track branching off of the Hudson line. Amtrak and Metro-North may need to add a second Empire tunnel into Penn station.

The Hells Gate line has 2 tracks, but they may have to add a 3rd track for the Metro-North trains and station stops. The NEC Infrastructure Master Plan discusses the plans for Metro-North New Haven line trains but notes that adding a 3rd track might impede Amtrak's plan for curve reduction and speed increases on the line. Replacing the movable Pelham River bridge with a higher fixed span bridge with track speed improvements for a 4-5? mile stretch around it is high up on Amtrak's NEC upgrade priority list. Amtrak may want the bridge to be replaced before Metro-North starts clogging up their tracks. Amtrak is not going to be happy with Metro-North New Haven Line trains running to Penn Station if they slow down the NYC to Boston trip times by 5 or 10 minutes.

There is an engineering study underway on defining the improvements and new stations for Metro-North Hudson and New Haven service into Penn Station. Have not heard when the report from that study will be released.

NEC Master plans...NY


NYC NEC plan by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Connecticut


West CT NEC plan by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

New Jersey


Northern NJ NEC plans by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

A Detailed Journey along the Hell Gate line courtesy of Train Man Paul of Subchat
http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=860970

Shell Interlock..needs to be grade seperated



Room for 3 or 4 tracks....used to have 6 tracks



Old Track ROW bridges are still intact...



Old City Island Station....should be restored along with Pelham Manor..



Pelham Bay Curve & Bridge to be replaced





Morris Park Station location



Old Eastchester station



Bronx River Draw



Westchester Ave station , might be restored?



Hell Gate Approach , used to have 4 tracks here...





Little Hell Gate



Big Hell Gate



Queens side



Needs to be 3 tracked....down to LIC







Harold Interlocking currently being Grade Separated and upgraded





East River Tunnel Portal

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by LMich

Another project that could be added to either of these lists depending on what day it is is the $2.2 billion Detroit River International Crossing/New International Trade Crossing, which will finally offer a direct, seemless freeway-to-freeway connection between Windsor's provincial highway system and Detroit's interstate routes, and create a redundancy for the narrow and aging (and privately-owned) Ambassador Bridge. Currently, on boths sides the Ambassador Bridges truck traffic begins and ends on surface streets before being directed to the controlled-access freeways.

There is talk that Governor Snyder will try to bypass the legislature (which is bought and paid for by the privately-owned bridge owner), and just order it built. Even Ohio's Republican-led legislature recently passed a resolution urging the building of the bridge, so it's not even a partisan thing, anymore.

Yeah, I was thinking it was a pretty important omission. Certainly not on the "happening" list, but it will get built.

[Davidsam52]

East River Tunnel Portal



[/QUOTE]

That's one of if not THE best photo I've ever seen of one of the East River Tunnel portals. Nicely done!