Rural separation, Carleton County, De-amalgamation, etc.

[Dado]

Every now and then the topics of rural separation and/or re-instating Carleton County and/or de-amalgamation come up, so here's a thread for it.

This Wikipedia article on Carleton County lists all the former townships from the time that the region was surveyed, which are shown in this map (also from Wikipedia), along with Cumberland township from Russell County:




And to get it started:

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Maybe time to get the rural areas out of the city in that case?

Careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.

A reinstated 'Carleton County' would be loaded up with exurbanites on unsustainable large lot acreages and perpetually aggrieved ruralites constantly whining about restrictions on what they can do on their property along with a collection of property speculators who have buying up rural property on the urban fringe for decades. What you would have is a new municipality with insufficient tax revenue to pay for the services demanded by both the population-rich exurbanities (who would constitute the majority) and the land-rich ruralites along with wealthy developer-speculators with deep pockets able to finance election campaigns.

Put all that together and what do you get? A county with a bad attitude towards Ottawa that would be quite prepared to approve all manner of low-density development just on their side of Ottawa's boundary in the vain hope of dealing with their fiscal problem. Just as Nepean et al did before, pretty soon the demands would start rolling in to extend various city services out to the new low-density suburbs, perhaps sprinkled with a bit of indignant "we paid for it too when we used to be in Ottawa" all the while the same residents continued to drive on Ottawa roads without paying for them.

Unless rural separation comes with some pretty ironclad guarantees that Carleton County could not approve any new suburban development and that any developer wishing to do so had to first get his land annexed to Ottawa, this idea is one best kept shelved.

As an aside, if rural separation is to occur, frankly I would sooner see rural Ottawa carved up and annexed to Renfrew County (former townships of Fitzroy and Torbolton - Arnprior is the local service centre), Lanark County (rural parts of former March, Huntley, Goulbourn, Nepean, Marlborough and North Gower townships), Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry County (rural former Osgoode township) and Prescott-Russell County (former Cumberland township, which once had belonged to Russell County anyway) than the recreation of a Carleton County. Ottawa would have better relations with these existing counties than it ever would with a reinstated Carleton County, and since they already exist they would be able to better run the annexed territory than would a county created from nothing.

[waterloowarrior]

The far end of Ottawa in West Carleton is pretty far ..... places like Casselman, Carleton Place, Kemptville and Rockland are all closer to downtown than Fitzroy Harbour. They must not be too happy paying $14k to get a rezoning for their property while Arnprior charges $1,600 and McNab/Braeside $1,000

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The far end of Ottawa in West Carleton is pretty far ..... places like Casselman, Carleton Place, Kemptville and Rockland are all closer to downtown than Fitzroy Harbour. They must not be too happy paying $14k to get a rezoning for their property while Arnprior charges $1,600 and McNab/Braeside $1,000

Believe me as somebody who has represented land owners/clients/companies etc who have projects/properties in other parts of Ontario, including the GTA, they cannot believe the ZBLA fees in Ottawa. With site plan application fees at about $18 K plus the engineering admin fee you are talking about $35 K in fees to the City in order to get a clear direction from the City. And you wonder why the housing industry is controlled by a few with deep pockets.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Dado

Careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.

A reinstated 'Carleton County' would be loaded up with exurbanites on unsustainable large lot acreages and perpetually aggrieved ruralites constantly whining about restrictions on what they can do on their property along with a collection of property speculators who have buying up rural property on the urban fringe for decades.

Put all that together and what do you get? A county with a bad attitude towards Ottawa that would be quite prepared to approve all manner of low-density development just on their side of Ottawa's boundary in the vain hope of dealing with their fiscal problem. Just as Nepean et al did before, pretty soon the demands would start rolling in to extend various city services out to the new low-density suburbs, perhaps sprinkled with a bit of indignant "we paid for it too when we used to be in Ottawa" all the while the same residents continued to drive on Ottawa roads without paying for them.

Sounds like the CFRA nation to me and in particular those who phone in from 10-12.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Dado

Every now and then the topics of rural separation and/or re-instating Carleton County and/or de-amalgamation come up, so here's a thread for it.

This Wikipedia article on Carleton County lists all the former townships from the time that the region was surveyed, which are shown in this map (also from Wikipedia), along with Cumberland township from Russell County:




And to get it started:




Careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.

A reinstated 'Carleton County' would be loaded up with exurbanites on unsustainable large lot acreages and perpetually aggrieved ruralites constantly whining about restrictions on what they can do on their property along with a collection of property speculators who have buying up rural property on the urban fringe for decades. What you would have is a new municipality with insufficient tax revenue to pay for the services demanded by both the population-rich exurbanities (who would constitute the majority) and the land-rich ruralites along with wealthy developer-speculators with deep pockets able to finance election campaigns.

Put all that together and what do you get? A county with a bad attitude towards Ottawa that would be quite prepared to approve all manner of low-density development just on their side of Ottawa's boundary in the vain hope of dealing with their fiscal problem. Just as Nepean et al did before, pretty soon the demands would start rolling in to extend various city services out to the new low-density suburbs, perhaps sprinkled with a bit of indignant "we paid for it too when we used to be in Ottawa" all the while the same residents continued to drive on Ottawa roads without paying for them.

Unless rural separation comes with some pretty ironclad guarantees that Carleton County could not approve any new suburban development and that any developer wishing to do so had to first get his land annexed to Ottawa, this idea is one best kept shelved.

As an aside, if rural separation is to occur, frankly I would sooner see rural Ottawa carved up and annexed to Renfrew County (former townships of Fitzroy and Torbolton - Arnprior is the local service centre), Lanark County (rural parts of former March, Huntley, Goulbourn, Nepean, Marlborough and North Gower townships), Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry County (rural former Osgoode township) and Prescott-Russell County (former Cumberland township, which once had belonged to Russell County anyway) than the recreation of a Carleton County. Ottawa would have better relations with these existing counties than it ever would with a reinstated Carleton County, and since they already exist they would be able to better run the annexed territory than would a county created from nothing.

They would never approve a restricted de-amalgamation. The average person out there hates government to begin with, so they would seriously despise control over land use being taken by an outlying body. Still, whether part of Carleton County or another more distant county, it doesn't change the fact that they would be heavy on exurban acreages and densities would likely be lower than they are now.

Cumberland would not be easy to move out as a whole, since it contains half of Orleans which would suddenly find itself in another county (and that would also split Place d'Orleans on multiple lines - until 2001, indeed that mall was split between Gloucester and Cumberland - as a development compromise perhaps?). Goulbourn around Stittsville and a small portion of West Carleton also lie in the urban area as well.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

Put all that together and what do you get? A county with a bad attitude towards Ottawa that would be quite prepared to approve all manner of low-density development just on their side of Ottawa's boundary in the vain hope of dealing with their fiscal problem.

And that's different from the status quo, how?

[citizen j]

Annex Arnprior, Carleton Place, Kemptville, Rockland, and all other neighbouring municipalities and jack their rates up to rural Ottawa levels. That'd level the playing field and solve everything. (I think I can hear the virtual angry mob assembling at the mere whiff of such a suggestion).

[Dado]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Cumberland would not be easy to move out as a whole, since it contains half of Orleans which would suddenly find itself in another county (and that would also split Place d'Orleans on multiple lines - until 2001, indeed that mall was split between Gloucester and Cumberland - as a development compromise perhaps?). Goulbourn around Stittsville and a small portion of West Carleton also lie in the urban area as well.

I was suggesting only that the remaining rural parts of those old townships be transferred (whether to extant counties or a reinstated Carleton County), not the full original geographic townships. Basically, anything that is currently within Ottawa's urban boundary (along with whatever growth areas we thought we needed for the next quarter century or so) would remain part of the City of Ottawa.

Looking at the map, the southeastern part of Gloucester might also end up being transferred too, probably as part of a reinstated Osgoode Township to Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry. The same would apply for southwest Nepean south of Fallowfield and west of Hwy 416 as part of a reinstated Rideau Township (former townships of Marlborough and North Gower).


Personally, I don't think severing the rural areas is a good idea, but *IF* it is going to happen, I would prefer to see the neighbouring counties enlarged rather than creating a ponderous and hostile Carleton County that would surround the City of Ottawa.

At a practical level, a recreated Carleton County would be a strange thing. The county seat would almost certainly have to be in Manotick for lack of anywhere better and because Manotick is the northern of only two crossings of the Rideau River in a would-be Carleton County. The county government itself would have to be bilingual because of the francophone presence in rural Cumberland around Navan, which would likely give the folks in West Carleton (where support for Carleton County seems to be highest) conniptions.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by citizen j

Annex Arnprior, Carleton Place, Kemptville, Rockland, and all other neighbouring municipalities and jack their rates up to rural Ottawa levels. That'd level the playing field and solve everything. (I think I can hear the virtual angry mob assembling at the mere whiff of such a suggestion).

While we're at it, do the same on the Quebec side and merge the entire region into its own capital city-province, taking over the NCC while we're at it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

While we're at it, do the same on the Quebec side and merge the entire region into its own capital city-province, taking over the NCC while we're at it.

Bonne chance with that one!

[adam-machiavelli]

I would not oppose rural secession if the Province first createed a Greenbelt around Ottawa using its legislation for the one around Toronto. Eastern Ontario's Greenbelt would include all lands (excluding towns and hamlets in the City of Ottawa) outside the urban boundary and every municipality on Ottawa's borders.

[Dado]

Good point there.

So long as there is some kind of understanding backed by legislation and not subject to overturning by the OMB that there are two kinds of municipality - rural and urban - and that rural-is-rural and urban-is-urban, then rural separation would be a viable option.

The only way greenfield [sub]urban development should be allowed to occur is within an urban municipality. Rural municipalities should not be allowed to approve suburban development (i.e. conversion of rural land to development). If a land owner wants to develop his land, he must first convince a city to proceed with annexation of that land.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

I would not oppose rural secession if the Province first createed a Greenbelt around Ottawa using its legislation for the one around Toronto. Eastern Ontario's Greenbelt would include all lands (excluding towns and hamlets in the City of Ottawa) outside the urban boundary and every municipality on Ottawa's borders.

You would then be pushing for them to separate outside of Ontario into a separate province. They would NEVER accept such heavy-handed tactics. Most people out there DESPISE the environmentalist agenda (not just hate, despise), and also think climate change is a scam. The Toronto Greenbelt was not well-liked in the areas affected - and the region surrounding Toronto is NOWHERE NEAR as conservative as the region around Ottawa.

[adam-machiavelli]

I don't know who eternallyme hangs out with but most people I know support the principles of environmentalism. Regarding hating Toronto's Greenbelt, all I'll say is some people may grumble about it but I doubt you'll see them burning cars in the streets.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

I don't know who eternallyme hangs out with but most people I know support the principles of environmentalism. Regarding hating Toronto's Greenbelt, all I'll say is some people may grumble about it but I doubt you'll see them burning cars in the streets.

Ever go out there? And no, they don't burn cars, but they do protest a lot. Look at how unpopular the wind turbines are.

[adam-machiavelli]

Don't believe everything the media tells you to think.

[Dado]

In rural England it's the conservatives who are the ones who want to keep the countryside the way it is (i.e. they want to "conserve" it). That's why David Cameron's Conservatives are quite environmentally-minded compared to Harper's and Hudak's versions.

[McC]

can't hunt fox in a subdivision, power centre or open pit mine