VMP - Should be a full Freeway ASAP

[Honest Scientist]

HI all - new post form someone who has long wanted to see London grow and reach its potential. I (and apparently a few others) feel this is so important to the city's future that it deserves its own thread.

I am aghast at the notion we should wait decades for the first interchanges and until the 2070's until this is done. Some bureaucrat assessing that we don't need it until London's population is around 675,000?

I give you Lubbock, Texas, a college town with great medical facilities - just over 200,000 (with no appreciable metro area beyond):

Map of Lubbock with Freeways


I-27 runs N-S, a full freeway ring road (with service road on both sides all the way around - and dedicated U-Turn lands at every exit), and now the new Marsha Sharpe freeway, running SW-NE past the University, football and basketball stadiums and the W-E through the N part of downtown (that section should be completed this year).

We blew it in the 70's when the province was going to pay, but London needs to catch up! As soon as possible! And start setting aside land for a northern E-W route, and a western N-S route that should follow.

The age of the car and truck is FAR from over (sorry Joni).

[manny_santos]

I think part of the problem was also that the 401 was built too far south. Back when it was built in the London area (1957) it was entirely in Westminster Township, significantly south of the city limits which at the time were near Base Line Road.

[haljackey]

Good idea for a thread.

London has all but lost it's ability to build freeways. Our last shot is the VMP.

Regarding a full ring road, city politicians said in a meeting earlier this week that the last chance to plan the route was back in the 1980's. If we're very lucky, we might get another north-south corridor in the west, but it will be built first as a 2-lane expressway just like when Airport Road/Highway 100 was first built.

Regarding the 401, the original 400-series highways were designed to completely bypass urban centers. Back then they didn't expect massive suburban sprawl that's why the 401 is now an urban freeway in Toronto. In London it still manages to carry out it's original design purpose to a good extent, and the 402 does this even better.

[Pimpmasterdac]

It's not surprising seeing a city in Texas with a good infrastructure that has relatively similar population to London.

As much I and others would like London to have a Ring Road or more comprehensive freeway system, nothing will happen without senior level government help.

In the US, the federal government is very generous and gives massive transfers for highway funding, $10s of billions a year. In Canada the feds have moreless done nothing, except for spur of the moment make work programs, like the Conservatives recent stimulus spending, or The Trans-Canada Highway.

In Ontario, it seems most freeway funding is for the benefit of the GTA area. All proposed project have to do with making it easier for commuters to get around, whether its 404 extension, Mid-Peninsula Corridor, Bradford Bypass, its all GTA specific.

Even when the province seems to give more transit funding you get everyone screaming for Public transit, which isn't as useful as for attracting business as better private transit would.

Fontana seems committed to making the VMP a freeway though. Being a former federal Minister and my perception as a more active mayor than AMDB hopefully it puts some pressure on our provincial ministers. We have 2 cabinet members in London, and with an election this year hopefully could turn up the rhetoric on the need for a freeway VMP for London sooner than 2073! Otherwise whats the point of supporting these ministers if they will allow London to sink further into mediocrity.

[ForestryW]

I am neither for nor against converting the VMP to a freeway.

But could someone please clarify specifically what the benefits are of a VMP freeway vs. VMP in its current state?

Also...if senior levels of government were to offer funding for transportation infrastructure, why would it be preferable to spend the money on road expansion vs. public transit?

[ForestryW]

RE: Lubbock

Keep in mind the Interstate system itself was also a post-war "make work" project (not a defense project as we've been led to believe). The US is no better than we are when it comes to building highways: sure they have lots of freeways, but look at the level of sprawl that has brought. Not to mention their road infrastructure in many places is crumbling compared to ours.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Good idea for a thread.

London has all but lost it's ability to build freeways. Our last shot is the VMP.

Regarding a full ring road, city politicians said in a meeting earlier this week that the last chance to plan the route was back in the 1980's. If we're very lucky, we might get another north-south corridor in the west, but it will be built first as a 2-lane expressway just like when Airport Road/Highway 100 was first built.

Bull-bloody-shit. It may be true that the last politicians to have a spine of some sort were around in the 1980s, but all that blocks these projects now is a lack of willpower and a subconcious desire for London to look and act like a town of 40,000, rather than the city of 400,000. The problem is not a lack of space or appropriate routes, it's anti-development planning from a bunch of hicks who somehow managed to be in charge of our city.

Right now, the southern portion of London's ring road is already completed. The eastern portion only needs to be turned into a limited-access expressway, and it too will be finished. The Westdel Bourne is straight, flat and free of development, making it the perfect candidate for a western corridor. The tricky part is the North; by the time we get a coherent plan going, the area between Medway and Sunningdale Roads will already be mostly built up (I'm assuming the city is able to annex and expand). Any expressway corridor would have to go between Eight Mile Road and Medway. To avoid future connection problems the city should buy up the needed land between Clark, Kilally and Sunningdale and reserve it as an expressway corridor.

Not so hard. All it takes are some planners, politicians and bureaucrats with basic planning and coordination skills.

[Snark]

QUOTE=Wharn;5169808]Bull-bloody-shit......Not so hard. All it takes are some planners, politicians and bureaucrats with basic planning and coordination skills.[/QUOTE]

If you knew 1/10th of what you speak, you'd be dangerous.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Snark

If you knew 1/10th of what you speak, you'd be dangerous.

And what would you mean by that? If you see something wrong with this proposal, then please deconstruct it and criticize it directly.

For the record, Haljackey, I was attacking the claims of the municipal politicians; not your assessment of their claims. I apologize for any perceived animosity.

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

We have 2 cabinet members in London, and with an election this year hopefully could turn up the rhetoric on the need for a freeway VMP for London sooner than 2073! Otherwise whats the point of supporting these ministers if they will allow London to sink further into mediocrity.

This is the source of my anger. This city is not growing as fast as it should be, and the obvious reason is the woefully outdated and inadequate transportation system. I wish Londoners wouldn't just blindly re-elect MPs, and instead send them to Ottawa with some expectation of funding. Right now, the $400 million that could build and landscape this ring road is slated for use on a goddamn hockey arena in Quebec City.

[flar]

I wouldn't blame London's slow(ish) growth on lack of freeways, it probably has a lot more to do with Southwestern Ontario's long term economic decline.

What real purpose would a freeway serve way, way over on the east side of town anyway? You already have the Highbury spur. But VMP is really the long way around for most London residents. It would probably be just as fast (er, slow) to wait at all the traffic signals on Wonderland, Wharnecliffe or Wellington if you're heading North/South.

[go_leafs_go02]

Rather see investment on the west-side. It takes 20 - 25 minutes to get from Hyde Park/Oakridge down to the 401.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by flar

I wouldn't blame London's slow(ish) growth on lack of freeways, it probably has a lot more to do with Southwestern Ontario's long term economic decline.

What real purpose would a freeway serve way, way over on the east side of town anyway? You already have the Highbury spur. But VMP is really the long way around for most London residents. It would probably be just as fast (er, slow) to wait at all the traffic signals on Wonderland, Wharnecliffe or Wellington if you're heading North/South.

I'm not thinking so much about the residents as I am about industry, be it manufacturing or high-tech. Such operations like to locate on the outer rim of the city to begin with, and freeways provide a fast and efficient way to move products to market. But any limited-access road would also provide benefits to the residents by making it easier to access their place of work, or to get to intercity highways, in both cases avoiding London's narrow arterials.

By the way, while we're on the topic, behold another glorious use of federal money: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/201...lass-parl.html

Sure, you could spend the money on something useful. Like putting in an interchange at Trafalgar and another at Dundas, arguably two of the worst intersections on the VMP, by October 2012. But no, the feds are blowing it on a hideous glass dome that isn't even going to be permanent. Why?

[Honest Scientist]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

RE: Lubbock

Keep in mind the Interstate system itself was also a post-war "make work" project (not a defense project as we've been led to believe). The US is no better than we are when it comes to building highways: sure they have lots of freeways, but look at the level of sprawl that has brought. Not to mention their road infrastructure in many places is crumbling compared to ours.

IIRC Lubbock only got 1-27 in the late 60's - early 70's, so it was a rather late entry to the IS system. I also believe it is part of the 'Ports to Plains Corridor' concept that would eventually extend US 287 (mostly divided Expressway with some Freeway) to Denver. Not sure if it will ever happen though.

Ever been to Lubbock? LAND is not an issue!! Ergo, sprawl is not an issue.

BTW I personally prefer reasonable sprawl to aggressive in-fill. As kid we used to be able to easily walk/bike to spacious in-city woods and green space. All that is now in-fill.

[Honest Scientist]

Originally Posted by Wharn

This city is not growing as fast as it should be, and the obvious reason is the woefully outdated and inadequate transportation system. I wish Londoners wouldn't just blindly re-elect MPs, and instead send them to Ottawa with some expectation of funding. Right now, the $400 million that could build and landscape this ring road is slated for use on a goddamn hockey arena in Quebec City.

I agree that London should lobby aggressively for this kind of BIG infrastructure money - NOW - we missed out when it was handed out to all the other comparable and smaller size cities that now have good/excellent in-city freeways/ring roads.

Squeaky wheel = grease!

I do not understand Snark's comment either.

PS - AFAIK, there is no Fed money in the proposed Quebex City Arena - yet.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Honest Scientist

I agree that London should lobby aggressively for this kind of BIG infrastructure money - NOW - we missed out when it was handed out to all the other comparable and smaller size cities that now have good/excellent in-city freeways/ring roads.

Squeaky wheel = grease!

I do not understand Snark's comment either.

PS - AFAIK, there is no Fed money in the proposed Quebex City Arena - yet.

Agreed, they really need to find a way to push this issue. Being finalized 50 years from now is not a solution for anyone and by that time will be to late.

[Pimpmasterdac]

I asked Fontana about the 2073 expected finish date on his virtual town hall.

Basically he thought that it was a ridiculously long away and that the upgrade would need to be done much sooner. Essentially the report brought to council committee was a to show that plans were in place to bring VMP to freeway standards; that the city can implement plans to make it a freeway much sooner.

Now if only they can find the $250 million to bring that about we're set

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

I asked Fontana about the 2073 expected finish date on his virtual town hall.

Basically he thought that it was a ridiculously long away and that the upgrade would need to be done much sooner. Essentially the report brought to council committee was a to show that plans were in place to bring VMP to freeway standards; that the city can implement plans to make it a freeway much sooner.

Assuming he's not just paying lipservice, it's good to know that the mayor does not find this timetable acceptable. I'd think its reasonable to at least start on the project within the next 5 years.

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Now if only they can find the $250 million to bring that about we're set

London actually has huge cash reserves that they've been building up since the 1970s. The city never has to borrow money and, from what I understand, it has one of the best municipal credit ratings on the continent. The money is there and a lack of it is not the problem. The question is, what should we blow it on: an LRT, a Ring Road, or the Infrastructure Deficit?

But really, expecting the city to foot the entire bill when upper levels of government fund projects like the Windsor-Essex parkway is a little unfair.

[ForestryW]

And again I ask: why is upgrading the VMP so critical? Is it more critical than, say, LRT or improved public transit?

[MolsonExport]

^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

And again I ask: why is upgrading the VMP so critical? Is it more critical than, say, LRT or improved public transit?

All of London's infrastructure suffers from underinvestment. It's best to start upgrading the bits that are already mostly built and for which you have a coherent plan. Additionally, though LRT may benefit students and those in the service sector, it provides little or no benefit to the manufacturing sector, which still makes up the bulk of the economy.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.

An improved VMP would go hand-in-hand with improved access to the north end of the city. Eventually you could build the Western expressway, and a northern connection between the east and west sections of the ring road.