The meaning and importance of city size

[SaskOttaLoo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Train map for Adelaide, Australia. About the same size metro as Ottawa's.

A new world as opposed to old world city. Lots of SFHs and low density development in the area.

Incredible! Perhaps a good 'role model' to aspire to (except for the low ridership part).

[Acajack]

Regarding how many people truly do love the suburbs regardless of their urban shortcomings...

A few days ago I was sitting around a table with a bunch of people I know fairly casually.

One of the sidebar conversations that I could hear was between two people who discovered they had the east end Ottawa suburb of "Orleans" in common.

They went on about how Orleans was just so awesome a place to live. One said that his intent was live there until he retires. And maybe until he dies. He said Orleans has such good restaurants, fine food shops, etc. This guy from what I gather is gay and in his late 30s, and lived in a "DINK" household.

The other person had just moved from Orleans to a highly desirable central Ottawa neighbourhood. The Glebe I think... where you can have your cake and eat it too. In the heart of the city with mature trees, stuff within walking distance. In an SFH with a backyard and a driveway. But she misses Orleans terribly. Still goes there for various errands and just to be in Orleans. No joke. Pretty sure she is married with kids - nuclear family type of thing.

Anyway, neither of these people are rubes who eat McDonald's five times a week. They're educated, are reasonably sophisticated, and have I assume six figure jobs. I assume they're reasonably well travelled.

And they just looooooooooove Orleans. Which among the blandness of suburbia, is just about as bland as you can get. Ottawa's other "bookend" suburb at the opposite end of town, Kanata, offers WAY more in terms of urbanistic delights. (Trust me guys, I am familiar with Orleans - I had a bunch of relatives living there until they moved away years ago.)

This is not to slag Orleans as a place to live for the "basics" of suburban life. For that, it's fine. But in terms of urbane delights, even if you're willing to drive, it's about as low-ball as it gets for a place with over 100k people. No redeeming qualities on that metric at least.

It doesn't even have a cutesy old town centre like places like Brampton and Mississauga and Milton have (but have overwhelmed with sprawl).

Here is what is left of the old historic core of Orleans:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.47307...2!8i6656?dcr=0

They tried to build a new suburban downtown at one point and got this:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.48072...7i13312!8i6656
(There aren't any more people there at any time of day or night than in that photo.)

This is where Orleans lives:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.45460...7i13312!8i6656
(Actually this strip is several km long of *this*. All the same.)

OK, this is where Orleans lives too:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.46236...2!8i6656?hl=en

And people absolutely love living there.

[FFX-ME]

It's not Orléans' fault. It's an old small franco Ontarian town that was just globed up by Ottawa. Rockland will sadly be next. On that note. Franco Ontarian town never had fancy good looking brick downtowns. The people were poor and didn't live fancily. Anglo-Ontarian villages are, sadly, much nicer looking. That being said, Orléans is great and I would move there in a heartbeat. Heck there's going to be a direct metro route to downtown soon.

[FFX-ME]

Just putting this there. Nuremberg and Adelaide have tramways, not subways or LRT, tramways...basically the worst possible form of transportation. A regular city bus is better than a tram since it runs on the same street and can go around obstacles. Halifax, for instance, would have a much more impressive map that than if you used its buses.

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't understand people like that at all, Acajack.

My mother grew up in Quidi Vidi, which at that time was a fishing village. It's basically on the backside of Signal Hill from St. John's - so VERY close to downtown, but topographically separated. Forest Road, at that time lined with modest detached houses and rowhouses, is only like a kilometre long and links Quidi Vidi the edge of the Downtown. It's close enough she went to school - from primary through high school -
downtown. Today, she considers that neighbourhood primitive. She'll joke they're hillbillies.

Meanwhile, she now lives on Mount Carson overlooking Mount Pearl - it's not even in the City of St. John's. She's surrounded by residential only. The nearest commercial strip is too far to walk and looks like this:

And I'll pass some comment about loving being close to the core and she'll agree in camaraderie. "Same with me! I love having everything so close. It's just... the lights of the city at night, feeling you're in the middle of it all, I love it. I don't understand how people even live out where it's quiet. Like... kill me, get me out of here."

And I'm like... you're DESCRIBING WHERE YOU LIVE.

And it's not ignorance. She's very well-traveled. Went to school in Paris for a few summers, pops down to NYC whenever there's a show she wants to see on Broadway, has close friends she visits in Osaka and London. And she loves all of them, except Florida, which she hates for being boring and having no culture, and the words she uses to describe Florida... they're EXACTLY how I'd describe Mount Pearl.

I don't understand diversity of opinions when it comes to Mount Pearl, and similar objectively wrong things like that. I just don't get it.

It's like... she has the same preferences as me, and can objectively judge anywhere else in the world, but has the most fucked up, inaccurate impression of where she lives. Oh... wait... Kidding, I know it's fine here for it's size.

[niwell]

I've known quite a few people from Kanata or Barrhaven, and while most were fine with them, none of them have had the attachment Acajack is describing about Orleans. But I have seen it as well - I can only imagine it's at least in part a franco-Ontarian cultural thing. I've been there many times and it seems particularly grim, even for a suburb.

[TownGuy]

I don't find that Orleans subdivision too bad actually, not saying it's great or anything either, but not too bad. I think our failure to build communities these days lies in the disastrous nature of commercial development moreso than the residential component.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's funny because the suburban theatres still draw good crowds, and people do go downtown here to catch arena events. But hardly anyone goes downtown to watch movies anymore. It has basically disappeared over the course of one, maybe at most two generations.

Although I'm not sure how much you can infer about a city's density or cultural offerings or anything else from downtown theatres given how that business has changed generally in recent years... it may not be the best barometer in that regard.

I think you can infer a little from porn theatres?

The Capitol was the main one in our downtown:


MUN Archives

I suspect they weren't common in cities our size?

The age of the oldest gay bars too tend to align well with the type of function, people-dependent urbanity I'm drawn to. Our oldest openly known but not official is from the 1960s, and our oldest official is, I think, mid-70s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I've known quite a few people from Kanata or Barrhaven, and while most were fine with them, none of them have had the attachment Acajack is describing about Orleans. But I have seen it as well - I can only imagine it's at least in part a franco-Ontarian cultural thing. I've been there many times and it seems particularly grim, even for a suburb.

Yeah, that's part of it for sure. The Franco-Ontarian élite has really gravitated to Orleans: from both inner Ottawa and the four corners of the province. So there's definitely that element to it (a kind of "no place but here" sentiment) for the francophones, but strangely enough neither of these two were Franco-Ontarians.

BTW, I don't find that Orleans is that bad visually, as far as suburbs go. It's no better and no worse. (I mean, I live in Gatineau, so... )

It's just that there seems to be very little to (sub)urban life there beyond the strict basics. (Which it does fine with, of course.)

But most suburbs that are as mature and affluent as Orleans tend to do at least a bit better on that front.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

I don't find that Orleans subdivision too bad actually, not saying it's great or anything either, but not too bad. I think our failure to build communities these days lies in the disastrous nature of commercial development moreso than the residential component.

Residentially, Orleans isn't that bad. Here is another typical street shot:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.44813...7i13312!8i6656

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I don't understand people like that at all, Acajack.

It's like... she has the same preferences as me, and can objectively judge anywhere else in the world, but has the most fucked up, inaccurate impression of where she lives. Oh... wait... Kidding, I know it's fine here for it's size.

Crazy idea: people like the suburbs? They want 'cultural experiences' to be relatively optional and live in a quiet place? Gorgeous scenery is great, but it fades into the background after a bit? A quiet backyard is a little slice of heaven?

Bill Davis said it best: "Bland works." The suburbs are bland.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Residentially, Orleans isn't that bad. Here is another typical street shot:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.44813...7i13312!8i6656

Yeah, again you can see the virtues of living there. There's space, there's vegetation, it's not bad. If that lead to a mixed used commercial strip it would be quite pleasant. Instead I'm sure it leads to a massive soul-sucking arterial road containing every big box store on the planet.

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

I find some of those links leading to parts of Orleans looking just like Mississauga. I'm guessing those subdivisions were built in the later 70's through to the '90s? Interesting how southern Ontario suburbs developed at that time. It's not ugly necessarily, but those commercial plazas are pretty disappointing usually.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I think you can infer a little from porn theatres?

The Capitol was the main one in our downtown:

I suspect they weren't common in cities our size?

Yes, St. John's strikes me as a pretty small city for a porn theatre... I would imagine that building a clientele base depends on a certain degree of anonymity which might have been hard to come by in St. John's circa 1974.

I think those moviehouses lasted much longer in the big 3... Vancouver might have had a couple that even chugged right along into this decade? Strangely for Winnipeg which tends to like seamy underbelly stuff, I don't think any of them made it past the mid 80s. It's hard to imagine those porn houses on Portage Avenue, right across from the dignified old ladies shopping at The Bay or Eaton's. In hindsight it must have felt like a harbinger of doom for downtown Winnipeg.

Quality adult entertainment, Winnipeg style

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Crazy idea: people like the suburbs? They want 'cultural experiences' to be relatively optional and live in a quiet place? Gorgeous scenery is great, but it fades into the background after a bit? A quiet backyard is a little slice of heaven?

Bill Davis said it best: "Bland works." The suburbs are bland.

I mean, I recognize the appeal of suburbs as some of my posts on here attest. I live in a suburban area myself.

I was just a bit taken aback by all the glowing, effusive praise for Orleans. (And it's not the first time I've heard it. Having had relatives living there as I mentioned - they did not move away by choice.)

The area I live in is IMO a much better compromise between urban(e) delights and suburban life than Orleans is, but I'd never speak glowingly about it in that way, and I've never honestly heard anybody say they just "loooooooooove" this part of town.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yes, St. John's strikes me as a pretty small city for a porn theatre... I would imagine that building a clientele base depends on a certain degree of anonymity which might have been hard to come by in St. John's circa 1974.

I think those moviehouses lasted much longer in the big 3... Vancouver might have had a couple that even chugged right along into this decade? Strangely for Winnipeg which tends to like seamy underbelly stuff, I don't think any of them made it past the mid 80s. It's hard to imagine those porn houses on Portage Avenue, right across from the dignified old ladies shopping at The Bay or Eaton's. In hindsight it must have felt like a harbinger of doom for downtown Winnipeg.

Quality adult entertainment, Winnipeg style

Montreal and Toronto still have one each.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean, I recognize the appeal of suburbs as some of my posts on here attest. I live in a suburban area myself.

I was just a bit taken aback by all the glowing, effusive praise for Orleans. (And it's not the first time I've heard it. Having had relatives living there as I mentioned - they did not move away by choice.)

The area I live in is IMO a much better compromise between urban(e) delights and suburban life than Orleans is, but I'd never speak glowingly about it in that way, and I've never honestly heard anybody say they just "loooooooooove" this part of town.

To be fair, I've not heard the effusive praise of Orleans when I lived in Ottawa. Then again, I never had a reason to go to Orleans either.

I guess my point was to SHH was that in my observations that people - for all they talk about what they "want" - tend to speak louder with their actions/dollars than words.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Just putting this there. Nuremberg and Adelaide have tramways, not subways or LRT, tramways...basically the worst possible form of transportation. A regular city bus is better than a tram since it runs on the same street and can go around obstacles. Halifax, for instance, would have a much more impressive map that than if you used its buses.

Adelaide at least has actual trains as the backbone of its system. It also has trams plus a guided busway BRT line.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Residentially, Orleans isn't that bad. Here is another typical street shot:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.44813...7i13312!8i6656

Resolutely "middle middle" as that applies in Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

It's not Orléans' fault. It's an old small franco Ontarian town that was just globed up by Ottawa. Rockland will sadly be next. On that note. Franco Ontarian town never had fancy good looking brick downtowns. The people were poor and didn't live fancily. Anglo-Ontarian villages are, sadly, much nicer looking. That being said, Orléans is great and I would move there in a heartbeat. Heck there's going to be a direct metro route to downtown soon.

Orleans has about 120,000 people with a median family income of 100k probably, and yet there's not a single place where you can go have a drink after work where there is a decent crowd and people are dressed with a bare minimum of chic.