SkyTrain Billions Better Spent on Trams: Study

[WBC]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ count on the media to do something right for a change? i think not.


as for Malcolm and Stephen, where is the guillotine when you need one?

...
...
...
What happened to logic???? Who threw theirs out the window????
And these people are suppose to be professionals????????????

Where is Gordon Price?


I'm all for a streetcar network, as I've said before....just not for being the backbone of our metro.

Two things to say here:

1) I am glad that Stephen is no longer employed as a planner of anything
2) Logic and reason left those 2 guys a long time ago.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

yes, but gateway profits industry which is a far more powerful political force than your average skytrain user. although they both do profit development interests....

and without industry people wouldnt have jobs there thus there would be no voters

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ 25-mins from YVR to Waterfront is quicker than the car and especially the 98 B-Line during most of the day....and it's certainly quicker than even some express metros in other cities, from the airport to their city centre.

outside of rush hour the car is still faster...especially in the evening....You can make it from Downtown to YVR in the evening in under 15min...not trying to take anything away from the service though but cars are still the most efficient way to get around and will remain so, the only problem with cars is a lack of capacity and congestion as a result.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

and without industry people wouldnt have jobs there thus there would be no voters

well, naturally.... my comment wasn't necessarily an indictment of industry, just a statement of fact. however, one cannot ignore the reality that this relationship between government and industry can often be corrupt and not in the best interest of these working voters. my opinions on the matter when gateway is specifically the issue are mixed.

[cornholio]

Its great to see a thread where I agree with everyones response, I mean it seems like everyone on here is 100% on the same side...this is something that doesn't happen to often.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that a tram or LRT service to UBC is not the right choice. A transit system has several levels, you have the regional express transit such as the WCE, then you have the Skytrain service for fast service for heavily used routes, then you have the rapid buses or LRT`s for fast and less used routes, and then trams and buses to fill in the rest and to feed the other lines.

Thise guy is either a idiot, didnt think things through or has a hiden agenda.

[Hot Rod]

Hmm, Im getting a little tired of this - as many of you probably are. So Im going to voice my opinion which most likely has already been shared. But here goes:

Every great city has its transportation backbone, like a fish. In Vancouver, it is Skytrain (light vehicle automated rapid grade separated subway or elevated) and WCE (heavy rail separated commuter rail). We MUST finish our backbone before we can start talking about adding in ribs and digits.

The Skytrain subway system consists (and should) of the Expo line from downtown to Langley, Millennium Line from UBC to Coquitlam and beyond, Evergreen Line to the NE quarter, Canada Line from downtown to YVR and Richmond, and the (proposed/vision) Northshore Line. Skytrain subway connects major urban centers and their high density areas or promotes it along urban corridors, providing rapid transit in dense stations. What we also need is TOD but I'll save that for later.

In addition, we need commuter rail going south and north and further east and possibly further west. Commuter rail is nice because each stop is basically a high capacity park-n-ride and there are very few of them, so I think we should embrace it in the less dense suburban areas moreso.

SkyTrain subway and WCE Commuter Rail - this is our backbone. NOTHING should stop the master plan nor be put in place of this. Im not saying we can't ALSO build a great streetcar/tram system or even a LRT for the F.Valley, but we DO NOT detract away from the backbone - because that is what makes everything else work.

What the author of the article failed to admit or realize is #1 Portland and Vancouver may be relatively close in city populations but they are LIGHT YEARS AWAY from each other as far as density. Portland gets away with trams because it is not as dense. Not saying that trams wouldn't work in Vancouver - but Im saying they should NOT be the backbone (because each tram passing by would be full of people, where would new people get on?).. #2) Portland has its LRT MAX system as its backbone. I dont remember this being mentioned in the article, but Portland already has its backbone network built. Im not saying it is of the same scale/capacity as a subway like Skytrain - BUT nevertheless, if you want to make a comparison - Portland has its backbone yet Vancouver's is not yet complete, so that is why their trams work. ... (Oh, Portland's other major backbone is it's interstate network - which even today is STILL IT'S PRIMARY TRANSIT MODE, I DONT CARE WHAT THEY KEEP TRYING TO SAY ABOUT THEIR TRAM SUCCESS. #3) Metropolitan Vancouver is larger than Metro Portland - so there are some very key differences. This is very important for a dense area like Vancouver to have backbones. Van doesn't really have a cohesive freeway system, so Commuter Rail and Skytrain is the ONLY backbone that would work.

As you can see from my rant, the article missed some points. Im not saying we shouldn't build trams - I think downtown needs a circular badly right now (why are they dragging their feet???) - but to suggest that Skytrain subway should be subsituted to Trams is just not very educated and brings into question the credentials of the author of this article.!!!

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

I realize that this is mostly noise coming from the Condon-Stephen Rees-Malcolm Johnston coalition (the Anti-Skytrain society).

Anti-Skytrain Society --> Funniest acronym ever!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Not sure why anyone thinks labour will be any cheaper post 2010. As it stands right now there will be more major projects post 2010 then pre. We should have less towers going up but not by a large amount, but we will have alot of large projects taking up the slack, pending a large recession.

Recession is the key there. Tough times are ahead, mark my words.

[Overground]

What a thread like this should say,

SkyTrain Billions Times Better Spent Than Trams

[officedweller]

I was down in Portland over the weekend for the Rose Festival Dragon Boat Races - and watched a bit of the Rose Festival Parade in the process.
Here's a pic of the Dragon Boat float taken by me - note the LRT tracks - the MAX had to wait for openings in the parade to cross the parade route. Ughhh.

[mattropolis]

as for Malcolm and Stephen, where is the guillotine when you need one?

Is this what Mr X will do when he's mayor of Vancouver and his subjects don't agree with him?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

Is this what Mr X will do when he's mayor of Vancouver and his subjects don't agree with him?

Probably....they'd disappear from this world.




Sigh.......


Trams far cheaper than SkyTrain: study
By Jeff Nagel - BC Local News - June 13, 2008



Modern trams or streetcars could be used to extend rapid transit in Vancouver west along Broadway to UBC at a fraction of the cost of using SkyTrain technology, a new study argues.

It says the savings from using a cheaper street grade system rather than deeply tunneled SkyTrain could be poured into transit improvements elsewhere in the region.

Patrick Condon, a UBC professor and one of the authors, points to the experience in Portland, Oregon, where streetcar lines have been built at a third the cost of light rail and a tenth the price of many modern subways.

He estimates a tram from the Millennium Line terminus to UBC would be 15 times cheaper than a SkyTrain extension.

"For the same $2.8 billion that the province proposes to spend on a single 12-kilometre SkyTrain subway line extension to UBC, it could install and equip 175 kilometres of modern tram," according to the study.

"Is UBC alone worthy of a $2.8-billion public investment? Are there more affordable options?"

A future of trams would actually be a return to the past – Vancouver ripped up a once-extensive streetcar network in the 1950s.

Civic leaders in Surrey and Langley have also questioned whether cheaper light rail should also be considered for the southerly SkyTrain extension towards Langley.

The province has backed the heavy rail elevated SkyTrain technology for both the Surrey extension and the Evergreen Line, saying the higher capacity and quicker speeds are important considerations.

At an average speed of 45 kilometres per hour, SkyTrain is 20 per cent faster than most light rail systems and double to triple the speed of most trams.

Condon admits streetcars aren't as fast as SkyTrain, but suggests they are more functional and neighbourhood-friendly in part because of the shorter distance between stops.





Fortunately, all of the commentators were being logical:


WE do have something similar to trams. It's the trolly bus (Electric bus). I can't believe you have to waste money on a STUDY to figure this stuff out.

Posted by: More SkyTrains needed
Date: Jun-13-2008
Report as Violation




Look at the Broadway Corridor. Running at almost full capacity. Full B-Lines running up and down. Do you really want to add trams into the mix to save a few dollars. Just build a skytrain and relieve some of the traffic pressure. It's money people will see reflected in their shortened commute every morning.

Posted by: Richard Leigh
Date: Jun-13-2008
Report as Violation




That tram in the picture is from Orleans, France, not New Orleans. And it would be a mistake to 'extend' existing SkyTrain corridors with trams. Passengers will want connections to be as seamless as possible. Trams are great as circulators within urban areas but grade-separated systems are needed for the number of passengers in the corridors under discussion.

Posted by: Evan
Date: Jun-13-2008
Report as Violation





The Portland streetcar only carries 9,800 riders per day and a good part of the line is in the free fare zone. At a cost of $230 million, it is not a very good deal compared to SkyTrain which carries a lot more passengers.

Posted by: Richard
Date: Jun-14-2008
Report as Violation




The original "tram" lines were torn up as they were replaced with the cheaper and more efficent buses used by the system today. The Skytrain does not fill the same role as trams do.

Posted by: Matt
Date: Jun-14-2008
Report as Violation

[mr.x]

Stephen Rees is nuts:

sorry old chum, you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. If LRT is slower than SkyTrain, then TransLink has designed it to be slower. On the Evergreen Line, TransLink’s planners deliberately made LRT slower. Talk to Gerald Fox of LTK (noted US transit expert) he shredded TransLink’s business case for the Evergreen line. Oh by the way, St Louis’s LRT has a faster commercial speed than SkyTrain, strange how an at-grade system can be faster than a grade separated system, probably because TransLink wasn’t anywhere near the project.

The real problem for SkyTrain is that despite almost $6 billion of the taxpayers money invested into the light-metro, Translink can’t show a modal shift. Also very worrisome is that TransLink says that 80% of SkyTrain riders first take the bus to the light-metro. This is ominous indeed as it shows that car drivers are not attracted to the metro.

old boy, its overall time to take a transit trip that attract riders not just the time on Skytrain. For many, a bus ride and a forced transfer to Skytrain takes lots of time, also remember that one can lose upwards of 70% of ridership per transfer. What we have is more Translink excuses for inept operation and squandering of the taxpayers dollar.

you haven’t a clue what you are talking about, both LRT and SkyTrain are railways and Skytrain is a very expensive railway, that’s why no one buys it; why Bombardier won’t let LRT compete against ART (SkyTrain); and why most planners consider the mode obsolete.

And please, don’t insult me with SkyTrain boarding numbers because they are a Houdini job and not statically verifiable. They are numbers just pulled from the air to suit the need of politicians and TransLink’s own band of inept planners. Admitted that SkyTrain carries large numbers of passengers but 80% of those are forced onto the light-metro from buses, which is a very very bad statistic indeed.

As for capacity, Calgary’s LRT has a higher theoretical capacity than SkyTrain, try reading their web site, certainly its easier to use and a lot more informative than TransLink’s.

Oh yes, this is about the fourth announcement for the Evergreen Line, like all political projects, the politicians just want to get as much political mileage as they can without really building it.

Funny thing is, not one Skytrain has passed public scrutiny in the USA - Hmmmm, I wonder why.

Who builds with SkyTrain? Only in Vancouver you say - I wonder why?

"Also very worrisome is that TransLink says that 80% of SkyTrain riders first take the bus to the light-metro. This is ominous indeed as it shows that car drivers are not attracted to the metro."

How the hell does that proof anything at all?

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

How the hell does that proof anything at all?

It just proves hes a complete cretin.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

How the hell does that proof anything at all?

Can you provide link? I want to read the whole context.

[SpongeG]

Why don't we hear more rumblings of desire for new streetcar systems?

With gas prices hovering at an all-time high and the B.C. carbon tax in full swing, more and more Lower Mainland drivers are looking to get rid of their car keys in favour of a transit pass.

But there's just one catch: For many folks, public transport doesn't yet go where they need it to.

Others are being scared off by the sight of commuters being packed into SkyTrain cars and trolley buses like canned sardines.

It's clear that demand for mass transit has never been greater, but capacity is being stretched like never before.

So, given current transit limitations, it's always good to hear of plans for greater service. One such addition in the works is the downtown Vancouver streetcar.

Plans for this green-friendly mode of transport have been around for what seems like forever. But with the Olympics a mere 20 months away, the push is on to make this people-mover a reality.

The initial phase of the network, set to use modern cars, will connect Granville Island to Science World on a three-kilometre stretch along the southern shore of False Creek. Eventually, it will go on to Chinatown and Gastown. Further extensions will see the streetcar reach into areas like Yaletown and Stanley Park.

According to Dale Bracewell, of the City of Vancouver, the plan is to have a demonstration line running in time for the 2010 Winter Games. Another source close to the project has alluded to the involvement of a major transportation company, such as Bombardier, known around these parts for having built the SkyTrain.

Whoever is involved, it's high time the streetcar made a return to the West Coast.

This past spring, British Columbians were treated to previously unseen video footage taken by Seattle filmmaker William Harbeck, showing a downtown streetcar cruising around Vancouver in 1907.

Locals were astonished to see that getting around 100 years ago was seemingly faster and more efficient than in modern times.

In 2008, the streetcar makes even more sense than a century ago. So much so that other Lower Mainland communities would be wise to follow Vancouver's lead in bringing it back. Both New Westminster and North Vancouver used to be streetcar cities, after all.

All this begs the question: Vancouver notwithstanding, why are other levels of government so slow to embrace this project?

Support for the line should be a no-brainer, given Vancouver's transit crunch and traffic headaches. Instead, it's still waiting for further funding, even while cities like Seattle have completed impressive new streetcar lines.

Last month, at a presentation hosted by SFU's City Program, Toronto architecture critic Christopher Hume mused only half-jokingly that, without its own streetcar line, his city wouldn't be worth living in.

Let's hope folks on this side of the country one day have the luxury of saying the same thing.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...0-2ceb5387b655

[jlousa]

I have no doubt that the amount of people that arrive to skytrain by bus is quite large but I don't think it's near 80%. A lot of people live within walking distance to skytrain stations and alot of the destinations are again near skytrain. I'd figure the real number to be somewhere in the 60-66% range. Wonder if skytrain fare evaders are effecting their statistics that much.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Others are being scared off by the sight of commuters being packed into SkyTrain cars and trolley buses like canned sardines.

Yes great... as if we won't be packing on to the streetcars...

Again, there's a place for streetcars, SkyTrain (metro), LRT, & Commuter Rail. You can't exactly just have one mode of transportation in a transit network.

It's funny when I said "LRT = rapid transit" in Portland, their response was "I would like to see a metro going through downtown." Portland's LRT network is pretty fast already with lots of signal priorities given to the LRVs, but yet they still want a metro. This proves that there is a place for metro and there is a need/demand for certain routes within Metro Vancouver.

[mr.x]

sorry old chum, you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. If LRT is slower than SkyTrain, then TransLink has designed it to be slower. On the Evergreen Line, TransLink’s planners deliberately made LRT slower. Talk to Gerald Fox of LTK (noted US transit expert) he shredded TransLink’s business case for the Evergreen line. Oh by the way, St Louis’s LRT has a faster commercial speed than SkyTrain, strange how an at-grade system can be faster than a grade separated system, probably because TransLink wasn’t anywhere near the project.

Translink did design the Evergreen LRT to be slower so that it wouldn't be such a drag on the WCE's ridership, but how much faster can the Evergreen Line be if it has to obey local traffic laws (including speeds)? Even if the Evergreen LRT had full signal priority at all of the intersections, I highly doubt it would make a significant cut in the ridiculous 25-minute travel time. Hell, the Evergreen LRT plan already had more than 3-kms of tunnel and more than a kilometre of elevated guideway yet it's still that slow!

As for St. Louis, their LRT runs largely on its own right-of-way like on an existing railway corridor on next to a highway....and it's apples and oranges when the urban fabric of both cities we're comparing is different.

I don't know what drugs he's on, but a fully grade-seperated system will almost always be much faster than an at-grade system.

The real problem for SkyTrain is that despite almost $6 billion of the taxpayers money invested into the light-metro, Translink can’t show a modal shift. Also very worrisome is that TransLink says that 80% of SkyTrain riders first take the bus to the light-metro. This is ominous indeed as it shows that car drivers are not attracted to the metro.

He obviously has never thought of a metro system needing a high-speed, high-capacity backbone.....not to mention that most cities stick with one technology for their region-wide metro network.

As for his last bit, what??? How do they even correlate?

Does he expect people to take the bus from Surrey to Downtown instead of taking the train or something? He obviously doesn't get that our bus system is a feeder system for SkyTrain, just like many other transit systems around the world. Isn't that the entire point of transfers???? And since when was it a crime for using your resources efficiently?

I personally take the 99 B-Line from UBC and then switch to SkyTrain at Broadway/Commercial....is that suppose to a problem for him?

old boy, its overall time to take a transit trip that attract riders not just the time on Skytrain. For many, a bus ride and a forced transfer to Skytrain takes lots of time, also remember that one can lose upwards of 70% of ridership per transfer. What we have is more Translink excuses for inept operation and squandering of the taxpayers dollar.

The problem would be that our regional rapid transit network isn't complete.....that is, the completion of the Canada Line, UBC and Surrey extensions, and the Evergreen Line. The bus system should act as a feeder system, and it is.

"One can lose upwards of 70% of ridership per transfer"......and yet, he's arguing for LRT for the Evergreen.

you haven’t a clue what you are talking about, both LRT and SkyTrain are railways and Skytrain is a very expensive railway, that’s why no one buys it; why Bombardier won’t let LRT compete against ART (SkyTrain); and why most planners consider the mode obsolete.

SkyTrain, a high-speed transit railway that is fully grade seperated vs. his proposal of an LRT (or streetcar) that stops every 500-metres. That sounds like a glorified trolley. Yeah....try doing that for the UBC extension.

Not exactly obselete.....Vancouver, Scarborough, Detroit, NYC, Kuala Lumpur, Beijing, and Yongin (South Korea). The Chinese have also displayed huge interest in the technology for other projects, and Honolulu is looking at it too.

And please, don’t insult me with SkyTrain boarding numbers because they are a Houdini job and not statically verifiable. They are numbers just pulled from the air to suit the need of politicians and TransLink’s own band of inept planners. Admitted that SkyTrain carries large numbers of passengers but 80% of those are forced onto the light-metro from buses, which is a very very bad statistic indeed.

*yawn*

As for capacity, Calgary’s LRT has a higher theoretical capacity than SkyTrain, try reading their web site, certainly its easier to use and a lot more informative than TransLink’s.

Iunno, but even Calgarians on this board who have experienced both systems have said that they prefer SkyTrain over their LRT.

He seems like a anti-Translink on everything.

Oh yes, this is about the fourth announcement for the Evergreen Line, like all political projects, the politicians just want to get as much political mileage as they can without really building it.

Really, this time it's the real deal.

[Distill3d]

correct me if i'm wrong, and pardon my ignorance, but a Tram is similar to a C-Train in Calgary is it not? an LRT system that runs at grade, rather then above or below?