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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2011, 7:44 PM
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wburg wburg is offline
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High Speed Rail in Sacramento?

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"The high-speed train's economic development and environmental benefits are significant and we want to bring it to Sacramento as soon as possible," said Sacramento Mayor Kevin Johnson. "I am strongly supportive of the High-Speed Rail Authority's current effort to secure additional federal funding that will help us move the project forward more quickly."
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-94277504.html

Moving the HSR derail from the Airport thread to its own thread.

People seem very divided about the potential of high-speed rail. Some Midwestern and Southern states are giving up their HSR money, which frees it up for use in states where it is wanted, like California. This will leverage the bonds we have already approved for construction. Why I think it's a good idea:

* The San Francisco Peninsula seems very resistant to HSR in their backyard. If they don't want it, rather than see it not built, why not offer Sacramento as a northern terminal? Build it where there is a market, and let the route to San Francisco be built in the second phase.

* The alternative to not building HSR is not saving money--the alternative is spending the same or larger amounts of money trying to prop up our current transit modes--highways and airports. These modes are already heavily subsidized and straining at the limits of their capacity. HSR would not entirely replace those modes--they have their uses--but they would fill a much-needed niche in the transportation market.

* Spending on infrastructure development promotes investment and development, and the form of that development is very much based on the transit mode. Highways and airports promote horizontal, suburban development. Rail transit promotes vertical, urban development. There is a lot of room for just that sort of development in the great central valley, and promoting dense development means we can retain that land area for agriculture (a $36 billion industry in this state!) instead of turning it into more suburbs.

* I don't agree with calls for austerity. It didn't work during the last Great Depression (Hoover's budget-balancing 1929-1932 and the rollback of New Deal projects in 1937 both worsened the economy) and it doesn't work now. Yes, these are debts we'll have to repay--but we won't repay those debts if we don't rebuild our nation.

* I also don't agree with the idea that Americans in general (and Californians in particular) are somehow constitutionally incapable of creating the same kind of transportation infrastructure that is already common in Europe, Japan and China. It speaks of a lack of faith in American worker and American companies. If we are worried that the Chinese are taking over, the answer is simple: just as we did with the first transcontinental railroad, we require that the work be done by American companies and American banks, using American suppliers. If the worry is that American companies aren't capable of doing this sort of work, well, that's part of the problem--and infrastructure projects like this are part of the solution. (Incidentally, that transcontinental railroad was built primarily by immigrant workers--but part of how you turn an immigrant into an American is to give them a job to do.)

* A major part of what has led us into the current financial crisis was American companies' willingness to stop actually building things, and instead turning imaginary piles of paper into larger imaginary piles of paper (characterized by companies like General Electric, which is mostly a financial services company rather than a company that makes electric things.) The answer is for Americans to START BUILDING STUFF. Which probably means that part of the solution is fewer regulations regarding building stuff, and more regulations that limit making imaginary piles of paper into bigger imaginary piles of paper--including the imaginary piles of paper produced by government.

* This all means lots and lots of jobs--exactly where they are needed (the central valley, where unemployment is highest) and exactly in the segments where they are needed (construction.) That means fewer folks unemployed, fewer people dependent on government with no opportunity to give back, and the money they earn will be spent to feed and house and clothe their families--all in California. That money doesn't vanish, it benefits the communities where HSR is built even before the line is completed.

* So does HSR specifically have to come to Sacramento to benefit? No. It would be nice, I suppose--but as Sacramento's administrative capital, what's good for California is also good for Sacramento. If we end up not being on the initial right-of-way, we can work with Caltrans to enhance existing rail service to the points where it does go--either by enhancing the Capitol Corridor to the Bay Area or the San Joaquin to the transfer point to the Peninsula. Because the Valley spot is more likely to see greater total growth as a result of HSR investment, the San Joaquin (or setting up a "regular-speed" rail alignment) might be the better long-term choice.
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 4:06 AM
CAGeoNerd CAGeoNerd is offline
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wburg, Sacramento is already planned as a northern terminal.

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nx8rNysZSI
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 8:02 AM
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CAGeoNerd: Yes, but in the second wave of construction--the idea was to build the route up the Peninsula to San Francisco first, then to Sacramento second. I'd suggest making Sacramento the first northern terminal to open if the Peninsula can't get its act together.
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 5:01 AM
CAGeoNerd CAGeoNerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
CAGeoNerd: Yes, but in the second wave of construction--the idea was to build the route up the Peninsula to San Francisco first, then to Sacramento second. I'd suggest making Sacramento the first northern terminal to open if the Peninsula can't get its act together.
Well I'm certainly with you there. I really don't understand, because the train would go pretty much the same route as the current Caltrain/BART routes, would it not? Are they just not being realistic with how much "more noise" or "visual pollution" it will cause? It's not like it will be blasting at 100+ mph through metropolitan areas.

Build it up here first, connect us to SoCal. We'll see a boom in our economy for doing so! Imagine all of those elementary school kids coming from down there to tour the Capital? or tourists coming here or going to Napa or Tahoe from here?

I think I've found KJ's next "push"....
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  #5  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 5:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd View Post

Build it up here first, connect us to SoCal. We'll see a boom in our economy for doing so! Imagine all of those elementary school kids coming from down there to tour the Capital? or tourists coming here or going to Napa or Tahoe from here?
Or people riding from Sacramento down to Anaheim to see Kings games...
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 5:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Or people riding from Sacramento down to Anaheim to see Kings games...
Too soon, WBurg... too soon.
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2011, 8:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Or people riding from Sacramento down to Anaheim to see Kings games...
One of the funniest (yet sad) things ive heard you say
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2011, 12:37 PM
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High speed rails are better source of transportation and very environment friendly too. I think the people of the city will also welcome it as their travelling expenses would be decreased and the time would also be saved.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 4:58 AM
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Bring it up to sac first leg, along with Fresno-Gilroy-San Jose. Then upgrade the hell out of the capitol corridor if not full hsr. Let the Penninsula cities fight over details.
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 5:03 AM
CAGeoNerd CAGeoNerd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Korey View Post
Bring it up to sac first leg, along with Fresno-Gilroy-San Jose. Then upgrade the hell out of the capitol corridor if not full hsr. Let the Penninsula cities fight over details.
Excellent comment too! Only thing is there are no current plans for a HST along the capital corridor.. might very well happen if the peninsula folks don't budge on it, in which case, again, Sacramento would benefit.
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 9:31 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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You guys do not think the security for HSR will be just as bad and as much as a hassle as flying?
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
You guys do not think the security for HSR will be just as bad and as much as a hassle as flying?
Well, you have been on HSR trains in Japan--how is the security?
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 8:15 PM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Well, you have been on HSR trains in Japan--how is the security?
It almost seemed as if there was no security in Japan (I mean that as a good thing). It will be different in USA, especially since the Unions are involved (sadly for HSR fans that is what is going to kill HSR).
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 8:17 PM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Here is a youtube clip for fun if you have not seen it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R57Zw...embedded#at=74
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  #15  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
Here is a youtube clip for fun if you have not seen it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R57Zw...embedded#at=74
It's the same clip I linked in my post above. I liked it.

Why would the security situation be different in the United States because of unions? Japanese railway workers are unionized, and the railroads government-owned.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 1:51 AM
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the koch brothers have appeared
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  #17  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 2:29 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Originally Posted by Web View Post
the koch brothers have appeared
No Web, the silent Majority of the United States, now called the Tea Party has appeared. Did you miss the last election?
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  #18  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 6:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
No Web, the silent Majority of the United States, now called the Tea Party has appeared. Did you miss the last election?
and again tell me why a tax break for the koch brothers helps anyony but the top 1%?? they have convinced the middle class to in fight for the scraps.
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  #19  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 8:29 AM
Ghost of Econgrad Ghost of Econgrad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
It's the same clip I linked in my post above. I liked it.

Why would the security situation be different in the United States because of unions? Japanese railway workers are unionized, and the railroads government-owned.
Uh, Japan Railroads are privately owned. Since 1987...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Railways_Group

and..

http://www.jru7.net/privatization.htm

Get yo facts straight my brotha...
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 1:25 PM
subterranean subterranean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Econgrad View Post
Uh, Japan Railroads are privately owned. Since 1987...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Railways_Group

and..

http://www.jru7.net/privatization.htm

Get yo facts straight my brotha...

So if I am understanding you correctly, the railroads are privately owned, therefore it is possible for a railroad to be profitable. For if it were not possible, what private company would invest?

And if this is true, the WSJ articles are completely bunk.

BTW, last year there was a French company chomping at the bit to build a HSR network in the U.S. with private financing.

The real story is that Repubs want to privatize everything that States are capable of profiting from. They sell off a State's assets just in time for their retirement from politics, then a Dem comes in and has to raise taxes and suddenly the Dems are the bad guys. It's an endless cycle.
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