GTA Transit Thread

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Transit City will not operate like the Calgary LRT.

First of all, the Calgary LRT has wider spaced stops, and total signal priority, and fencing(in terms of that video, concrete walls) as I said. Transit City will have none of this, and the reports on Transit City show it will be no faster than the current bus service in the corridor.

First of al concrete walls are ugly, Calgary and Edmonton are moving away from concrete walls in favour of barriers such as these:



Next time 36th Avenue gets a major facelift those concrete barriers will be gone. Heck Calgary has already removed the chain-link fence which used to sit on top of the concrete barrier.

As for traffic priority, why don't you fight for it, rather than attacking LRT at every corner.

Make Eglinton better. The report shows that the barriers are there, fight for true traffic priority, and fight for more distance between the stops. Toronto would get far more rapid transit and be better of for it.

Subways are great, but had Calgary gone the subway route the system would not have been as successful as it is today. Why because the city would have gotten far fewer extensions than it has now.

[nname]

I remembered in Vancouver's Evergreen Line LRT consultation, the planner made it very clear that without fencing, the LRT acts as a road vehicle, and will have to obey speed limit. That is why the LRT in the plan is so much slower - the speed limit on the road is only 50/60km/h. Not sure if traffic rule is the same there.

And also, the train was not travelling at 80km/h on that video. It was travelling at 60km/h between the first and second at-grade crossing, speed up to 70km/h across the overpass at the interchange, before slowing down to 60km/h before the next major at-grade crossing.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by nname

I remembered in Vancouver's Evergreen Line LRT consultation, the planner made it very clear that without fencing, the LRT acts as a road vehicle, and will have to obey speed limit. That is why the LRT in the plan is so much slower - the speed limit on the road is only 50/60km/h. Not sure if traffic rule is the same there.

And also, the train was not travelling at 80km/h on that video. It was travelling at 60km/h between the first and second at-grade crossing, speed up to 70km/h across the overpass at the interchange, before slowing down to 60km/h before the next major at-grade crossing.

I have watched the speedometer of the LRT in that section. Believe me it is 80 KM/H. On the SD160s you can peak into the cabin of the train and see the speed. It started slowing down after because it was approaching a station.

That stretch of road has a speed limit of about 60 KM/H and the LRT always out runs the cars.

[nname]

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

I have watched the speedometer of the LRT in that section. Believe me it is 80 KM/H. On the SD160s you can peak into the cabin of the train and see the speed. It started slowing down after because it was approaching a station.

The same section? I know the NW line is typically 80km/h because its on the median of a freeway/expressway, and the South line is because its separate from a roadway. But that particular video the speed doesn't seem to reach that high.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by nname

The same section? I know the NW line is typically 80km/h because its on the median of a freeway/expressway, and the South line is because its separate from a roadway. But that particular video the speed doesn't seem to reach that high.

When I lived in Calgary, I lived in the area and took that stretch of the LRT everyday. It was 80 KM/H.

Maybe that particular video is showing the LRT running a bit slower. It would slow down for construction and repair work. But I don't think that was the case here.

Let me put it this way, when I went back to Calgary that is the part of the city I travelled to and the LRT got me to my destination 15 minutes faster than my car. Mind you it was in the Chinook Mall area, which is a bit of an awkward trip as is but none the less it does prove that the system works well.

[M II A II R II K]

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

First of al concrete walls are ugly, Calgary and Edmonton are moving away from concrete walls in favour of barriers such as these:

And the new Seattle LRT line has the same priority but without those physical barriers in place, complete with rail crossings.

[nname]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

And the new Seattle LRT line has the same priority but without those physical barriers in place, complete with rail crossings.

... were the train obey the 35mph speed limit of the street it travels on

From the Operation Plan:

Operating speeds will vary according to the type of right of way, civil alignment characteristics and special local conditions. In general, maximum designed allowable speeds along the Central line will be:
• Exclusive right of way: 55 mph
• Semi-exclusive right-of-way (protected): 45 to 55 mph
• Semi-exclusive right-of-way (street median): posted speed limit of parallel street; on MLK Way, the posted speed limit is 35 mph.
• Mixed bus/rail downtown twin bore tunnel 35 mph or less operational speed will be the posted speed. There is a 10 mph protected at the un-gated DSTT merge points.

[nname]

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

When I lived in Calgary, I lived in the area and took that stretch of the LRT everyday. It was 80 KM/H.

I guess that barrier would be enough to separate the tracks with roadway so the train can travel at its own speed then. But that's not something that the TC line would have (the one you posted is a cross section for tunnel portal). From other cross sections, seems like its the same as those "track slightly raised about roadway to prevent cars from using the ROW but allow access for emergecy vehicle" thing that Evergreen LRT line proposed.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by nname

... were the train obey the 35mph speed limit of the street it travels on

From the Operation Plan:

That is no different than Calgary. The video I posted from Lions Park, the train travels between 30-50 KM/H from there to SAIT/ACAD/Jubilee Station.

At the end of the day, almost 250,000 people use the LRT in Calgary.

[M II A II R II K]

Mayor Ford’s executive pushes ahead with subway expansion dream


Feb 13 2012

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhall...xpansion-dream

Mayor Rob Ford’s executive committee has voted to push ahead with plans for a Sheppard subway extension. Monday’s vote came five days after a specially called meeting at which city council largely derailed Ford’s subway vision with a 25-18 endorsement of a return to a light rail plan. While explicitly confirming support for a partially buried LRT on Eglinton Ave. and a surface line on Finch Ave., council stopped short of completely dashing Ford’s multi-billion-dollar dream of extending the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Town Centre primarily through private investment.

- It authorized creation of an expert panel, including former mayor David Crombie, Ford’s point man on Sheppard subway financing Gordon Chong, and U of T transit expert Eric Miller, to report back on Sheppard options by March 21. They meet for the first time Friday. Ford has dismissed council’s vote as “irrelevant” and is lobbying the public and the province to ignore it and proceed with his plan for a buried Eglinton LRT and a Sheppard subway.

- Members of executive, after hearing Chong’s defence of his report advocating subways, and listening to visiting councillors attack him for relying heavily on a 20-year-old environmental assessment, sided firmly with Ford and subways. “It is time to stop thinking the only part of the city that deserves good rapid transit is the downtown,” said Councillor David Shiner (Ward 24 Willowdale).

- Ford’s allies approved his motion to have city manager Joe Pennachetti report back with “recommendations on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard subway.” Pennachetti is also tasked by council with reporting back on the findings of the expert panel, which includes LRT advocates.

- Councillor Doug Ford told reporters that the public pressure campaign he and Mayor Rob Ford are launching will be called Save our Subways, or S.O.S. As well as personal appearances, they hope to open an office and use mass emails and phone calls to lobby the public and pressure councillors who voted against the mayor’s subway plan and Premier Dalton McGuinty, who controls $8.4 billion in promised transit funding.

.....

[osmo]

Originally Posted by sober2ndthought

Vancouver is running only two car trains which are far narrower than Toronto's so that reduces building costs when it comes time to building stations and tunnels. As well the elevated sections were built on top of the route for the 98 B-Line, which was a dedicated bus lane so that helped reduce land expropriation costs.

Vancouver, unlike Toronto, also does long range Urban Planning. The Right of Way for the Canada Line was acquired many years ago. When the plan for the Canada Line was first laid, the city began preparing the area for a future transit line such as moving utilities during routine maintainence and once the funding for that line came through the construction went unimpeded.

Calgary does this as well. The area for the 8th Avenue Tunnel has already had the utilities moved and the city built an LRT tunnel under City Hall when the building was expanded. The surface sections get the same treatment; as the city grows, the city identifies potential future LRT routes and preserves rights of way before the land is developed.

Toronto seems to have a policy of funding everything as soon as the plan is laid then changing the plan every 2 years. So there is no long term strategic planning and thus Toronto ends up paying considerably higher costs for transit construction.

I am not going to comment on other factors, as I don't have the facts on it, but geology may have played a role as well.

Great points.

from the other post on design I did find Edmontons system a lot more pleasing to the eye. If Calgary cut corners and rushed then I will let it off hte hook!

You and the previous poster above hit great points. Transit in Toronto is so bloody expensive because there is no long-term planning. We don't set aside ROW or land when its cheap for growth projections down the road. Are Environmental Assessments are to thorough and eat a lot of time and resources. Many jurisdictions get by with minimal but adequate EA standards. I am not saying we run a bulldozer through the streets like they do in China and worry about messes later but in modern times the City of Toronto should have a rough idea of what it is working with whiten its boundaries... if not then maybe an expensive through study that can be a template for a few decades needs to be done? But I do wonder if Amalgamation had anything to do with this also so?

The only way Transit in the City will start rolling along smoothly is if Metrolinx finally grows a pair and gets is house in order. They are painfully weak for such an important entity. It would have to stretch for all the GTA as tolls or pricing charges would have to be implemented all throughout the region to save inner cores from getting hit hard. But even for all the talk of Tolls being negative to the Core I still kind of think its just a over-reaction. The Core's population continues to jump. demand for GO and TTC service will only increase, business want to be near the action and many employees are preferring to live downtown. I honestly belive the impact would be very tiny to how it would effect businesses in the core.

[osmo]

James: The TTC subway report Mayor Rob Ford doesn’t want you to read

February 15, 2012

Royson James

Mayor Rob Ford has been sitting on a TTC report that shows job growth projections are so far off target in North York and Scarborough that it’s not advisable to build a subway linking the two centres.

Sources say Ford was given the analysis almost a year ago, after he demanded to know why the TTC wanted to build a light rail transit line along Sheppard, and not the subway it favoured 25 years ago.

The 11-page report, obtained by the Toronto Star, concludes it is ill-advised to build subways when job numbers, office development and transit ridership are so low.

“The world changed,” a source told the Star. “The mayor got the report,” but it has not gone public because “they don’t like the answer they got. The information is important because it explains why the TTC’s opinion is different today than in 1986.”

For example, planners projected 64,000 added jobs would come to the North York Centre, near Yonge and Sheppard, between 1986 and 2011. In fact, as of 2006, employment had grown by only 800 jobs over the two decades, the report says.

Scarborough Centre, at McCowan and Highway 401, was forecast to grow by 50,000 jobs. Figures for 2006 reveal a net loss of 700 jobs and a total of 13,700.

The job picture reflects a less than stellar performance all across the city. The 1986 forecast estimated that by 2011 Toronto’s job numbers would increase by 670,000. Not so. Job figures from 2006 show a city-wide growth of just 70,000 jobs over the 20 years.

Latest figures (2010) show that instead of topping 1.9 million jobs, Toronto barely crept up to 1.3 million. Figures for 2010 show North York Centre numbers at 38,800 and Scarborough Centre at 14,700 total.

The numbers are a warning sign for those who would build a large-capacity subway to link the North York and Scarborough centres when the ridership is not there, the report concludes.

But the mayor’s brother, Councillor Doug Ford, would have none of it when contacted by the Star.

“Build a subway and people will come,” he said, refusing to consider TTC figures that show the opposite has happened along Sheppard.

“The TTC? Please, give me a break. They are just justifying union jobs. LRTs destroy neighbourhoods,” he said.

Besides the off-target job projections, other factors have conspired to disqualify Sheppard as a profitable subway route, the TTC report says.

• The Sheppard subway was projected to carry 15,400 people per hour in one direction at its busiest point in the day — the standard way of measuring capacity. In fact, it carries just 4,500. And even if it is extended from Don Mills to the Scarborough Centre, it would top out at between 6,000 and 10,000 people per peak hour, the report says.

• City council, bowing to neighbourhood pressure to scale down development, changed the Official Plan. Instead of encouraging skyscrapers and intense office nodes at major intersections, an Avenues plan was developed that disperses development along the main artery, lowering the heights of buildings but intensifying along the route, not just at intersections. Such a pattern favours LRT transit, which typically has more stops than subways.

• The office building market disappeared, taking jobs with it. Condos sprang up where offices were slated. Condos bring people, but they don’t necessarily take the subway to work because they work all over the GTA. If jobs existed in the Sheppard corridor, then people coming to the jobs would get on the subway in greater numbers.

• Private developers were supposed to build mixed-use developments at or near or on top of the subway stations. But experience shows numerous stations with developable sites “remain vacant for decades,” among them, Eglinton/Yonge, Downsview, Leslie/Sheppard, Eglinton-Allen.

• North York Centre was supposed to deliver 60 per cent of its travelling population to transit. In fact, it is 34 per cent. Scarborough Centre is delivering 21 per cent, not the 55 per cent promised.

• Many commuters were expected to travel between North York Centre and Scarborough Centre. The “employment nodes” didn’t materialize so the commuters had no reason to travel the route.

• Some 20 million travellers a year were expected to connect to the Sheppard subway from outside Toronto. Now the demand is pegged at “extremely limited.”

The report cites global trends, lack of funding and improved LRT technology as additional reasons the TTC backed away from supporting subway construction.

“All these have combined to reduce the need and justification for very-high capacity transit like subways,” the report says.

One transit planner, speaking anonymously for fear of retaliation from the mayor, said:

“The world has changed. It’s not the way people thought it would evolve back in 1986. Employment — the biggest generator of transit riders — has not materialized in a big way. There are more than 30 per cent fewer jobs than envisioned.”

Ford has said he will continue to push for subway construction on Sheppard and elsewhere. He says the public want subways, not light rail, which he derisively dismisses as trolleys.

And subway supporters like Gordon Chong, whose pro-subway report is being debated at city hall, says the TTC was strongly in favour of subways when it approved the environmental assessment on the Sheppard subway in 1986.

But the secret TTC report, dated just after Ford convinced the province to give him time to find money for the Sheppard subway extension, says that 25 years ago the subway was the “dominant form of rapid transit. Only four modern light rail lines existed in North America. Light rail was not fully understood and vehicle design was not fully evolved.”

Since then, new light-rail lines have opened in more than 115 cities around the world; it has emerged as the transit mode of choice for routes too busy for a bus but not near the 15,000 per hour needed to warrant a subway.

Toronto does not yet have a light-rail line. St. Clair comes closest, but it stops too often, is just one car and can’t handle higher capacities.

Sheppard, even if built out to the Scarborough City Centre, will top out at 6,000 to 10,000 riders per peak hour — ideal for light rail transit, the report says.

Gary Wright, chief city planner, told the Star that either light rail or subways will do along Sheppard. But whatever mode is chosen, it should link North York and Scarborough, even if the development targets have not been reached.

Royson James usually appears Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Email: rjames@thestar.ca

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhall...u-to-read?bn=1


Yes its a column piece but it just adds more proof to the people who view subways in the low density parts of the City as a losing situation. I don't get how anybody can even attempt to expand Sheppard when it is such a underwhelming line now... yes it does not go anywhere. But it never will find the money TO go anywhere so why the waste of time and resources on trying to beat this dead horse. In most Cities a political leader would step down after this debacle.. Ford of course won't. *Sigh*

[Andrewjm3D]

From my understanding the Sheppard Subway was dreamed up in the pre-amalgamation days when they wanted to link North Yorks civic centre to Scarboroughs. The line makes no sense. How many people will need to make that trip? I bet not many people living in North York have the need to travel east to Scarborough, and why would anybody in Scarborough want to get on a subway that takes them further north? Eglignton should have been a true subway, but seeing as the LRT cars have been ordered there is no reason to bury them 100% of the way.

Rob, Doug, Nunziata, and Gino Boy's argument that the burbs are getting screwed by downtowners. That we don't care because we already have subways is BS. Of the three subway lines we have all of them go through the burbs, only 2 travel through the core and are very crowded. The DRL is what should be looked at as Toronto's priority subway investment. It would offer those in the burbs more direct access to the core, and free up space on the crowded Yonge Spadina line.

Watch in the coming weeks these lies coming from Ford.

- we don't want streetcars on Eglington and Finch (lie)
It's an LRT not a streetcar line
- we don't want another St Clair (lie)
It's nothing like St Clair
- we're already buiding a subway (lie)
They are building a buried LRT, cars built for the surface
- St Clair went way over budget
(lie, the city went over budget when it decided to bury the hydro lines, not part of the streetcar plan)

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by osmo

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhall...u-to-read?bn=1


Yes its a column piece but it just adds more proof to the people who view subways in the low density parts of the City as a losing situation. I don't get how anybody can even attempt to expand Sheppard when it is such a underwhelming line now... yes it does not go anywhere. But it never will find the money TO go anywhere so why the waste of time and resources on trying to beat this dead horse. In most Cities a political leader would step down after this debacle.. Ford of course won't. *Sigh*

I never understood why Sheppard even got a Subway, there is nothing in that area at all. It makes some sense to build a subway on Eglinton just because the central section of Eglinton could just barely support a subway.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D

From my understanding the Sheppard Subway was dreamed up in the pre-amalgamation days when they wanted to link North Yorks civic centre to Scarboroughs. The line makes no sense.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the area. How does linking two major regional centres together not make sense? I guess the 18 lanes of packed cars on the highway 401 are a great example that no one commutes between Scarborough and North York?

GO Transit operates a number of express bus routes from Durham to North York Centre, and those routes are very popular. There is a commuter market in this corridor.

And judging by the great ridership on the Sheppard subway, it is meeting a demand. And if extended to STC it would really fill up even more.

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp by the the pro LRT people. How about we did not build the Yonge subway. We could have provided way more LRT by not having a subway anywhere. Oh wait, the subway serves more people than just the area around it.

I love how you point to the past, look we built the Younge Subway. Younge Subway takes so many riders that an LRT in that area would have been bursting at the seems. The area where the Younge Subway runs is so dense that it makes a lot of sense to build a subway there.

But lets use your past argument, Calgary's original plan was to run a Subway not a LRT line. But plans were changed to LRT in the 70s. Lets say history took another approach and instead of an LRT system, the city opted for a subway system. Here is how it would have looked:

The Subway would run under 8th Avenue in a subway tunnel in the downtown core. To cut costs there would have been only two stops, one the east end of downtown and one on the west end of downtown. That would have taken most of the budget so the city would have been careful with future extension.

The demonstration line likely would have been the NE Line with Memorial Drive converted to a full fledged freeway. The terminus would have been the Calgary Zoo Station.

Then Calgary would have gotten the Olympics, so some extensions would need to be made to accommodate the Olympics. The NE line would have been extended to Barlow/Maxbell Station to accommodate the facilities in that area.

The NW Line would have been built to accommodate the Olympic Village at the University. So the line would have been extended to the University. But instead of taking its current route where it goes into neighbourhoods and picks up considerably more passengers, the Subway would have gone under the Science Centre emerging elevated with a stop at Suntla then it would have gone into the median of Crowchild Trail which would have been upgraded to a freeway. There would a stop at 5th Avenue, followed by stop at McHahon Stadium, followed by a stop at the University which would have been the terminus. The next year, the University would complain about being the terminus stop so there would been an extension to Brentwood Station.

Then starting in 2000 the city would have begun the Crowchild Trial Extension so the Subway would have been extended to about Dalhousie station, maybe Crowfoot station.

This year city council would start debating building a new South line to Earlton Stampede Stations. Council would be weary about building the line because the cost so prohibitively high and there isn't an obvious right of way available for the subway as a result the subway would have run entirely underground.

Instead of having the 44 stations Calgary has today, there would have have been 10 stations. The West side of the city could only dream rapid transit and the same would hold true for Southeast Calgary.

The NE Line would have been a complete failure because no one lives in that area and as a result no one would use the Subway. The only cost effective extension to the line would also have run the Subway into areas of the city where no one lives so the city would not have bothered with any extensions.

Instead of having 250,000 people using the subway everyday, the ridership numbers would have been closer to about 50,000. Congestion would become a nightmare and businesses would increasingly move out of downtown in favour of the suburbs. Downtown would have slowly died out.

The TOD communities of Sunnyside, Lions Park, would never have come into existence. Bridgeland would have been the only example of TOD in Calgary but because so few businesses are located in downtown Calgary it would be declared a failure.

This is basically what happened to Edmonton as a result of their decision to run a good chunk of the LRT in tunnels.

LRT was beneficial for Calgary because it was cost effective, as a result Calgary has had significant transit ridership because it runs right into peoples neighbourhoods. Downtown has remained a major employment centre, and most people working downtown use the LRT to get to their jobs.

[miketoronto]

First of all, I never said I was against Calgary LRT. Calgary did LRT the right way, and if you want to get down to it, the Calgary LRT is just an aboveground subway. The majority of the system operates on private right of ways. Not in the middle of streets.

Calgary LRT is totally different than what Toronto is planning. Calgary's LRT is a subway(just not underground).

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

First of all, I never said I was against Calgary LRT. Calgary did LRT the right way, and if you want to get down to it, the Calgary LRT is just an aboveground subway. The majority of the system operates on private right of ways. Not in the middle of streets.

Lies, yeah I said it lies. Majority of the system runs along city streets shared with other traffic.

Only the South Line has for a majority of its length a segregated ROW. Even that one it runs in mixed traffic situation between Victoria Park Stampede Station and Earlton Stampede Station. You must be reading a textbook from the early 1980s to bring up your facts. I get my facts by living in Calgary for most of my life and using the LRT on a daily basis.

The only reason the city built the South Line the way it did was to save money, that is the only reason. The city has learned that running it on streets attracts more riders because it built closer to people's home, plus it offers greater TOD potential.

The other lines all share most of there space with traffic.

The NE Line runs down the median Memorial Drive, then it runs along the median of 36th Avenue. Then it runs on the right side of Metis Trial, then it goes into its own right of way and finally travels down the median of 52nd Street (opening soon).

The West LRT, travels elevated along the CP Rail Line, then travels at grade down the median of bow trail, then travels to 17th Avenue and travels to the side of 17th Avenue.

The NW LRT, travels on its own ROW, followed by running down the side of 14th Avenue, then moves side of Banff Trial, then for the rest of the route travels down the median of Crowchild Trial.

The reason Calgary's LRT doesn't travel along one road is because the city's residential development is such that building the LRT down the median of one road less attractive to travellers.

We know your anti-LRT basis. There are plenty in Calgary who want a subway if you lived here you would be complaining that the system isn't underground like Toronto.

A better example of your ideal LRT is San Dego, not Calgary. Compare the ridership statistic, San Dego has double the track but half of the ridership. Why because it is inconvenient and no one lives anywhere near the lines.

[nname]

I think Mike is saying running a LRT like this (right-of-way as part of the centre median with few at-grade crossings, physically separate from traffic with large buffer protected by barriers, and train is indepedent from the road and do not have to follow traffic rule) is a lot different from this (right-of-way itself is a center median with large amount of at-grade crossings, no protection from traffic travelling directly beside the track, and train acts as a road vehicle so have to obey speed limit).

[sober2ndthought]

Originally Posted by nname

I think Mike is saying running a LRT like this (right-of-way as part of the centre median with few at-grade crossings, physically separate from traffic with large buffer protected by barriers, and train is indepedent from the road and do not have to follow traffic rule) is a lot different from this (right-of-way itself is a center median with large amount of at-grade crossings, no protection from traffic travelling directly beside the track, and train acts as a road vehicle so have to obey speed limit).

I see very little difference between that an 36 Avenue other than there are no crossing arms. A lot of LRT systems have successfully programmed the lighting to change in favour whereby the light changes for the LRT before it approaches the intersection thus the LRT never has to wait for a light. The only problem with this compared to Calgary's approach is safety, the ringing bells, flashing lights and crossing arms send a very clear message: stay away. A red light only you run into the problem that someone will run the light not realizing a train is approaching (mind you people do run the crossing arms in Calgary as well).

That is not a bad system all things considered. I am assuming the downtown is pretty much dead (as is the case with American downtowns). There were 47,818 boardings per weekday this past year and the system only opened 3 years ago and runs about 32 KM. For an American transit system that is very successful. The length is comparable to Philadelphia's PATCO line, which is a subway line, but it has only 35,500 riders.