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  #3561  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
I disagree. Maybe that's how the Toronto police force operates. If that had happened in Calgary or Edmonton he very likely would have been shot. In Calgary I'd say the odds of him being shot would have been 99.99% based on his refusal to follow orders.
There was a time Toronto Police would likely have shot him. But not anymore. Why?

Two words: Sammy Yatim.
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  #3562  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Increasing social inequality as a solution to social inequality is... I don't even know what to say.
Hey, I said I was being the devil's advocate!

Anyway, thanks to you and the others for your responses.

I can see your social consciences are still intact!

(BTW the hypothetical system I described while not identical is reminiscent of certain things you see in the U.S.)
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  #3563  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
(BTW the hypothetical system I described while not identical is reminiscent of certain things you see in the U.S.)
Pretty much their entire approach to taxes and spending since the Reagan era. More and more tax cuts that benefit the wealthy, less and less social spending directed at benefitting the poor and working classes.
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  #3564  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Fair enough if you don't feel sympathy over their sexual frustration. But you're probably talking about a lot of people who have diagnosable issues like Asperger's, autism, depression, etc. as underlying causes. To just blithely run them down will only galvanize their sense of exclusion, turn them further inwards and plant the seeds for more of this sort of carnage.

I'm not saying anyone needs to invite one of these guys over for dinner and conversation, but inciting hatred toward them is not the most productive approach IMO.
Having seen autism first-hand in my life I can try and offer some psychological insight.

Males on the high functioning end of the spectrum often will find difficulty in dating in their younger years, and it's no fault of their own - despite wanting to fit in, they're simply not born with the natural ability to socialize in the same way that so-called "neurotypicals" do. If there's a lack of supports in elementary and high school, or the parents don't see it, these people can slip through the cracks and have no idea why they keep getting rejected. If you keep getting rejected and have no idea why, a logical explanation one might think of is that it's the fault of others; this can be re-enforced by well-meaning parents who believe in their kid and aren't able to see what they're doing wrong. By the end of high school, the individual who hasn't received proper support and has never been taught social skills may feel a sense of hopelessness: while many of their peers are going to prom with a date, nobody wants to go on a date with them, and it can feel like it may never happen, but they don't know why. Doubly bad if they ask their parents or peers or teachers why, and they don't get an answer. (The worst thing you can say to one of these individuals, from my experience, is 'you'll find someone!' or 'there's someone out there for everyone!' or 'it'll happen in university'. That doesn't help, because it sets expectations and it doesn't give any advice on what to do differently; with expectations comes disappointment.)

I know myself, when I was in high school, I never once dated. I also barely dated in university. And, nobody would tell me why I kept getting rejected. All I kept getting was positive words from parents, teachers, and various friends that it would eventually happen, but it doesn't help. It took a couple of male friends to actually sit me down and explain things to me before I understood what I was supposed to do in order to get someone to date me. I had absolutely no idea and I was shocked. I had absolutely no idea that I was doing everything wrong, but nobody ever bothered to tell me back when I was 13, 16, 19, or 21, and nobody taught me what I was supposed to be doing until I was well into my 20s. Eventually I did have some romantic success, and although I'm single right now, I have better confidence now.

My point is, there has to be support for people that are on the autism spectrum, because if they fall through the cracks and don't receive proper support, they can easily end up in a vicious circle of rejection and have no idea why they're getting rejected, and it can escalate. I'm thankful it never got remotely close to the point it did for Alek, but I had the support I needed (albeit a few years later than I should have). Some compassion for these people at their right stage in their lives can make a world of difference. Most people want to "fit in" in society and if they feel excluded, it's anyone's guess what might happen.
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  #3565  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
There was a time Toronto Police would likely have shot him. But not anymore. Why?

Two words: Sammy Yatim.
Andrew Loku's death by Toronto Police happened after Sammy Yatim's, however.
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  #3566  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Obviously it's a thin line but given the history (I believe all of the van or truck attacks in recent years except maybe one or two have been ISIS-inspired) can we really blame people if their minds go there when something like this happens?

Also, no one sensible wants to condone Islamophobia, but is it still OK to be ISIS-phobic?
One national "journalist" certainly wanted it to be

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barb...-pain-of-chaos

Quote:
An attack of this magnitude can be much more difficult when it is ideological. It can produce social tension. The debates can be exhausting. A “merely” deranged massacrist can produce social unity — a single, grieving circle of citizens, who will privately experience dread of the chaos the massacre represents. But I will cop to extreme selfishness in saying I would have preferred it this had been an act of jihadism or something else linked to a clear ideology or cause. Because I like to be able to think about things in the long term. I prefer mental order to mental chaos.
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  #3567  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot View Post
One national "journalist" certainly wanted it to be

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barb...-pain-of-chaos
Not even close. Do you not understand what she wrote?
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  #3568  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Not even close. Do you not understand what she wrote?
It's pretty obvious he does. I seriously question your reading comprehension if your takeaway is different.

FWIW that piece was very likely written with the base assumption the attacker was Muslim before the facts came out. It's painfully clear (and also relayed to me by someone with connections in the industry)
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  #3569  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
It's pretty obvious he does. I seriously question your reading comprehension if your takeaway is different.

FWIW that piece was very likely written with the base assumption the attacker was Muslim before the facts came out. It's painfully clear (and also relayed to me by someone with connections in the industry)
Did you read the article? It's pretty obvious that either you didn't or you're jumping to conclusions fed to you by some far left media type who hates "right-wing" writers like Kay having a say on anything. Are you guys honestly trying to say that the vast majority of people didn't assume at first that this was a terrorist attack done by someone who was part of an Islamic terrorist organization or was inspired by them? That also doesn't make them Islamophobic.
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  #3570  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 11:04 PM
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Cool story bro
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  #3571  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2018, 11:28 PM
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Cool story bro
Yup!
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  #3572  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Hey, I said I was being the devil's advocate!

Anyway, thanks to you and the others for your responses.

I can see your social consciences are still intact!

(BTW the hypothetical system I described while not identical is reminiscent of certain things you see in the U.S.)
I literally had to leave my computer and take a walk while responding to that post (and I deleted the response!), because, as I've mentioned before, I'm involved in a youth centre that mainly serves kids in a low income neighbourhood, many of which have zero supports at home (we have around a dozen homeless youth between 14 and 18 right now; in most cases, kicked out by parents because they're "too difficult to parent" or abandoned by parents who are drug addicts or alcoholics). Two of the clients are actually being home schooled by a third party because at the age of 12 and 13, they've been expelled from their schools. The school board still has a responsibility to educate them, but the only place they can concentrate on school work is our youth centre, so the board pays for a tutor to help them a few hours a week. That's their education right now. It's not an idea situation, and it's very difficult for the tutors who are giving them one-on-one attention to cope with the severity of their situation, but we had another kid (14) who parent's are using crack just drop out of school because he's "going to be a drug dealer".

The "No Child Left Behind" model of directing funds toward the successful individuals or facilities to the detriment of less successful ones is a race to the bottom, and I don't like the fact that we've got schools competing for a finite resource that in many cases, a school that's "performing better" sees a smaller budget increase or budget drop so that a poorly performing school can invest in methods to improve it's outcomes—I'd rather all the schools got all the funding they needed to achieve everything they possibly could—but having seen what happens when people don't have access to resources (and homeless youth refuse to call themselves homeless, so they don't get access to supports; OW only applies to those in the workforce, so a homeless 14 year old is truly helpless in this country and exists fully at the mercy of the society around them; we have no homeless shelter for youth here) and it hurts everyone.

The common trend among the kids I'm seeing and the responses you guys have given over the past couple pages to my question of "What can we do" is basically, offer the guidance and support that they need to become better adjusted to the world around them at a younger age so that they don't reach a point where they get desperate enough to become self-destructive or violent.
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  #3573  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 2:17 AM
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I am really appreciating all of the responses. Good stuff.

Though I should mention that at least financially, the Stevie kid(s) I am talking about don't generally come from underprivileged homes. I know most of their parents well enough to make small talk. Nice people almost all of them without exception.

And they generally live in places like this:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.50111...7i13312!8i6656
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  #3574  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 2:33 AM
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Slightly different reality here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@48.39271...2!8i6656?hl=en

That house still has the smoke stain on the outside. The inside was only repaired in the most basic way, so that the landlord could get it back on the market as soon as possible. The district administration gives absentee landlords a nice amount of money to rent these places to poor people.
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  #3575  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2018, 11:28 AM
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Slightly different reality here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@48.39271...2!8i6656?hl=en

That house still has the smoke stain on the outside. The inside was only repaired in the most basic way, so that the landlord could get it back on the market as soon as possible. The district administration gives absentee landlords a nice amount of money to rent these places to poor people.
We have areas like that too. Not many murders here most years but when they happen, guess in which areas they do?
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  #3576  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 2:00 AM
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Our neighbourhood's homicide rate dropped precipitously, we went from 3 or 4 per year in our neighbourhood alone to 3 or 4 in the past decade. In 2014 when we had a record number of homicides, not one was in this neighbourhood.

A lot of it is fueled by gangs from Ottawa, and they tend to focus more on suburban areas than the inner city. They do bad shit here, but not homicide, so far.
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  #3577  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 2:44 AM
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I haven't read all the post on the van attack in Toronto so I won't respond to them, yet. I will note that on Tuesday, CBC let Toronto have the airwaves across Canada and I heard but five minutes of that call in show and I was so enraged that I did not read anything about Toronto (other than hockey) for two days. A guy had phoned in to say that he blamed society and specifically TV shows, video games and movies.

It is like the 1990s simply didn't happen. Have people seriously not seen the Simpsons take on this (Itchy & Scratchy & Marge) broadcast on December 20, 1990. The book Popcorn by Ben Elton was published in 1996 and directly riffs on Natural Born Killers released on August 26, 1994. I understand that these things are now 28 to 22 years old but the idea that TV violence causes real violence has been seriously destroyed by the media, TV tropes and academic studies.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13718

However, to get back on topic. Sept-Isle is at two. Double murder on Monday night. I believe this is their first murder in 2 years (April 21, 2016).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...Eles-1.4633322

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...hter-1.4634307
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  #3578  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Oliver May View Post
I haven't read all the post on the van attack in Toronto so I won't respond to them, yet. I will note that on Tuesday, CBC let Toronto have the airwaves across Canada and I heard but five minutes of that call in show and I was so enraged that I did not read anything about Toronto (other than hockey) for two days. A guy had phoned in to say that he blamed society and specifically TV shows, video games and movies.

It is like the 1990s simply didn't happen. Have people seriously not seen the Simpsons take on this (Itchy & Scratchy & Marge) broadcast on December 20, 1990. The book Popcorn by Ben Elton was published in 1996 and directly riffs on Natural Born Killers released on August 26, 1994. I understand that these things are now 28 to 22 years old but the idea that TV violence causes real violence has been seriously destroyed by the media, TV tropes and academic studies.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13718
If you had read the posts, the reason people are blaming media isn't because of its promotion of violence, but because of its promotion of the idea that a man isn't worth anything unless he has lots of sex. The perpetrator in that crime apparently did it because women wouldn't sleep with him. Most of the victims were women, it is alleged that he was purposefully driving into them as he made his way down Yonge Street.
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  #3579  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2018, 5:15 AM
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In fact, more often than not it's the underachievers that get the trophies for actually doing a bit of work, or simply being less bothersome to the others.


Kids of mine have finished the *entire year* with a final mark of 100% and seen the academic excellence award go to "Stevie" (name changed to protect the innocent, although...) for stopping throwing his personal stuff and other items like chairs at other kids halfway through the year... this was an "improvement" that needed to be rewarded.

It's a bit better in high school I must admit. Or at least where we go but elementary is just insane right now in its race to the bottom (nivellement par le bas).

I guess the rationale is that self-motivated kids like mine don't need a pat on the back as much as Stevie does - and it's true to a point. It doesn't seem to bother them much at all, whereas it used to enrage my wife and I quite a bit. (We kept this mostly to ourselves.)
Well, if kids start to get wind of the fact that these trophies are given to those who are "special" and need the attention, then pretty soon, knowing human nature and how kids behave, getting those trophies soon be something that's mocked rather than celebrated on the playground.

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It was your generation that gave them to us. Participation trophies were invented to appease the parents of millennials, not the millennials themselves. I never kept mine, and I honestly don't actually remember receiving any if I did, other than completion certificates. My brother got some, they're at my dad's house because my brother doesn't give a shit about participation trophies either.
Often people seem to think that the concept of a prize for trying but not winning is supposedly a thing unique to, or invented for our generation (I'm a "millennial" too), but surely it's not totally a new concept in society, since the idea of a "consolation prize" as both a thing and a figure of speech existed, presumably goes back well before just our current generation.
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  #3580  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2018, 6:46 PM
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Well, if kids start to get wind of the fact that these trophies are given to those who are "special" and need the attention, then pretty soon, knowing human nature and how kids behave, getting those trophies soon be something that's mocked rather than celebrated on the playground.
Pretty soon? That happened when I was a kid. Students that got extra attention from teachers—even though they struggled and genuinely needed it—were constantly mocked. I remember my grade 5 teacher say "I'll get something nice for everyone this year" and the only did something for the one kid we all (myself included) bullied. (He went on to join the military or something? Don't know where he is now.)
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