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  #721  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 4:41 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
The main thing that fixed the Hawks was good ownership and a willingness to spend. So far that hasn't worked for the Argos but it's too early to say whether MLSE is having an impact or not. Any idea of moving the team out of Toronto is a bit silly at this point, IMO, given Toronto's relevance on the national stage for sponsorship and marketing. Relocating the Argos would be admitting defeat on a number of different levels.
While I agree with this, we have to look at two points. As you said, is this just a matter of being patient and rebuilding a market or is it a matter of a disconnect and no one having any idea of why or how to fix it. I don't buy most of the arguments as to the reasons for the poor attendance, especially when compared to the other non big two teams in town. In a market of 5 million, common sense should dictate you could find a large number who don't subscribe to the groupthink.
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  #722  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 6:24 PM
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While I agree with this, we have to look at two points. As you said, is this just a matter of being patient and rebuilding a market or is it a matter of a disconnect and no one having any idea of why or how to fix it.
I'm more in the latter camp but MLSE haven't had enough time to really put their impression on the team fully yet. If we're still talking about the Argos getting 12K attendance in 2020 then I think we'll be beyond the point of saving the team. I don't think greater demographic issues are going to be helping the CFL in the years ahead and we're already seeing the affect that is having in BC/TO/MTL. I don't think the health concerns are working in the greater favour of football, either. The financials of the CFL are becoming more tenuous the lower that gate receipts go.

For me, Montreal is becoming concerning. Their gates are declining and they don't have an ownership behemoth like MLSE to stem losses. They can only bleed millions a season for so long before it doesn't make sense to operate.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I don't buy most of the arguments as to the reasons for the poor attendance, especially when compared to the other non big two teams in town. In a market of 5 million, common sense should dictate you could find a large number who don't subscribe to the groupthink.
The most concerning thing for the Argos is that other teams in their market can consistently get crowds out. The Jays are seeing their attendance return back to normal after being higher than usual and the Argos have not seen any uptick from that. The Argos are getting down near the Rock attendance-wise.

Yesterday afternoon, simultaneously:
Blue Jays: 35K
Argos: 11K
Wolfpack: 7K

MLSE have to be looking at the Wolfpack, playing a few blocks away at Lamport, wondering how they can attach themselves to that same cool factor. I see more people talking on my social media bubble about Wolfpack games than Argos games. Argos simply lack that appeal and in a big market you can be swept away without it.
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  #723  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 8:46 PM
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I am really baffled as to why Argo attendance has plummeted so much since the move to BMO. Even in 2012-2013 the Argos were drawing 22 to 23000 fans a game in the Braley era at Rogers Centre and 35,000 fans for the 2013 east final on the shoe string budget. Maybe the Argos should ask the Jays if they could move back? I am guessing Rogers Centre is much easier for fans to access compared to BMO?
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  #724  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 11:01 PM
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The Blackhawks situation was tied to having bad hockey clubs in the early 2000's. I am one of the biggest CFL fans out there and it pains me to see the argos in this type of situation I wish everyday they could be selling out BMO like TFC does. However when you have 35 years of steady decline in popularity like the Argos have had. And when they have tried so many things to fix it being Skydome, Rocket Ismail, Doug Flutie, Ricky Williams, BMO field and fans still don't respond then at a certain point you have to determine if it continues to make sense staying in that market. At this point the only thing left to try is trade for Johnny Manziel and see if that would help. Maybe it takes Ambrosie and the board of governors giving Bob Young a Grey Cup game or something but that's the last thing left on the table to try in Toronto at this point.
Too late
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  #725  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 11:09 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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I was just about to post this (too late)

Ticats and Alouettes discussing potential Johnny Manziel trade
Justin Dunk 3downnation July 22, 2018

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Montreal Alouettes have been discussing a potential deal involving quarterback Johnny Manziel.

The teams have talked about multiple players who could be included in a possible trade with a couple of big names on both sides.

Manziel has yet to appear in a regular season game with the Ticats after signing with the club in May, stuck behind starter Jeremiah Masoli, who is currently second in the CFL in passing yards. The Alouettes have used Drew Willy, Jeff Mathews and Matt Shiltz at quarterback so far during the 2018 season, scoring a league-low 69 points.

If Manziel goes to Montreal it would give him the opportunity to be the starter for the Alouettes. Head coach Mike Sherman knows Manziel well as it was Sherman who convinced the Kerrville, Texas native to switch his NCAA commitment from the University of Oregon to Texas A&M University.

The 25-year-old Manziel starred at Texas A&M, capturing the 2012 Heisman Trophy. He was selected in the first round, No. 22 overall, in the 2014 NFL draft by the Cleveland Browns but he was released in March 2016 after posting a 2-6 record over two tumultuous campaigns.

Manziel played in two pre-season games completing 21-of-31 passes for 168 yards, one touchdown, no interceptions and rushed six times for 29 yards.
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  #726  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 11:32 PM
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Alouettes acquire QB Manziel from Tiger-Cats
TSN.ca Staff July 22, 2018

Johnny Manziel is headed to Montreal.

The Alouettes have acquired the former Heisman Trophy winner from the Hamilton Tiger-Cats as first reported by TSN's Duane Forde.

According to TSN's Dave Naylor, headed to Montreal with Manziel is offensive tackle Tony Washington and offensive lineman Landon Rice in exchange for defensive end Jamaal Westerman, wide receiver Chris Williams and two first-round picks in 2020 and 2021.

Manziel has not seen the field behind Jeremiah Masoli in Hamilton, but that might change with the move to the Alouettes.

Alouettes head coach Mike Sherman coached Manziel in college at Texas A&M during Manziel's redshirt freshman season with the Aggies in 2011.

The move to bring in Manziel might help spark an Alouettes' club that has managed a total of only 69 points on offence through five games.

The 25-year-old is signed through the end of the 2019 season.

The Ticats have lost two games in a row to push their record to 2-3. They will take on the Ottawa Redblacks next week at Tim Horton’s Field, while the Alouettes will play host to the Edmonton Eskimos.
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  #727  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 12:40 AM
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I am glad Manziel will see the field now starting for the Als it helps generate some buzz and excitement in their market and gets potential U.S. tv viewers now on ESPN.
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  #728  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 12:50 AM
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Re Argos

As Toronto's demographics change, interest in the team wanes. This has always been the issue, has it not? It's pretty clear that CFL football is a tough sell to immigrants, regardless of where they come from.

My Dad was not a great fan of sport, but the Ti-Cats game invariably found its way on to the TV. We went to one or two games a year as well. It was a part of the culture for people from certain generations in southern Ontario. It still is in other parts of the country, of course, but it now seems dead or at least dying here.

They lost many of us in the 90s and now the league doesn't know what to do. I don't know what to do either!
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  #729  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Re Argos

As Toronto's demographics change, interest in the team wanes. This has always been the issue, has it not? It's pretty clear that CFL football is a tough sell to immigrants, regardless of where they come from.

My Dad was not a great fan of sport, but the Ti-Cats game invariably found its way on to the TV. We went to one or two games a year as well. It was a part of the culture for people from certain generations in southern Ontario. It still is in other parts of the country, of course, but it now seems dead or at least dying here.

They lost many of us in the 90s and now the league doesn't know what to do. I don't know what to do either!
I disagree with that as living here in Winnipeg we are the 3rd most culturally diverse city in Canada with over 38% of the city and growing now visible minority population. I think it is more in relation the number of pro sports teams in Toronto the Argos have to compete with. You have the Leafs and Raptors eating up headlines and tv time from october to june. You have the jays from april to sept. You got TFC now too the last few years. That leaves the argos at Toronto Marlies level of notoriety in the city. Compare that to the other CFL markets most just have to deal with the hockey team and maybe a MLS team. The sporting dollar and attention span seems to only go so far.
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  #730  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 2:35 AM
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Montreal sure is giving up a lot for a very short term potential solution at QB. I don't see Manziel becoming a career CFLer... either he shoots out the lights and goes back to the NFL, or he retires completely at the end of this contract. I get that the Als are in dire straits at QB but this is a very here and now desperation move on their part. It's quite a gamble, especially considering what a big deal they made about signing Westerman as a cornerstone of their defense. But considering that they have Kavis Reed and Joe Mack calling the shots, I can't say I'm all that surprised.

Great deal for the Ticats, though. I just feel bad for the Cats fans who ponied up $250 for a Manziel jersey
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  #731  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 2:57 AM
DavefromSt.Vital DavefromSt.Vital is offline
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Actually, the Tiger-Cats just tweeted that anyone who bought a Manziel jersey can get a $100 gift card at their store.
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  #732  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 3:02 AM
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Actually, the Tiger-Cats just tweeted that anyone who bought a Manziel jersey can get a $100 gift card at their store.
That's pretty generous! Good on the Ticats.
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  #733  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 3:23 AM
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It's only a problem if people make it a problem, there are enough people at this forum who want to see them dead. Otherwise, if they have to be used as a loss leader for the league, I'm fine with that (for the moment). The Chicago Blackhawks didn't exactly have stellar attendance for quite a while before their resurrection but I don't recall too many asking for them to be written off.

We have to look at things like why did Rogers buy in? What benefit would they get and what changed their mind. There was a benefit for them that made them buy in when they didn't before.

I am always suspicious of people who make a habit of pointing out the obvious. Everybody knows they're not doing well, so why the need to point it out. Does it help or hurt the situation? And why would you want to make the situation worse?

As long as there is a stable ownership group I'm ok with it (again, for now) I haven't heard a naysayers excuse yet that can explain the situation, nobody can figure it out, not even MLSE as of yet.
Human nature I guess. There seem to be several posters who continually whine about the abysmal attendance for the Arizona Coyotes, Carolina Hurricanes and Florida Panthers.
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  #734  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 5:46 AM
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Wow, I'm surprised the Ticats did this (I argued they wouldn't a while back... any future for me in prognosticating personnel moves is in doubt )

I'm also shocked that the team sent its starting LT and a rotational guy who has seen a lot of the field as a blocking TE this year. Both had been playing well and how the line gets adjusted will be interesting, though the Riders got good pressure in both games so maybe the Cats feel changes are needed anyway. There is OL depth but it's now thinner. And Evans is the sole backup QB. Are more moves in the offing?

But in terms of what's coming back, there's a lot of value in Hamilton now owning Montreal's first picks for the next three seasons (i.e., including their second rounder in 2019 from the 2018 draft trade; they gave up their first round pick in the supplemental draft). Maybe Westerman can help add some push to a D-line that hasn't been getting enough pressure. Chris Williams could be the most immediate game-changer, provided his hammy is healthy -- he's exactly the kind of guy June Jones covets and could thrive in this offfense. He left Hamilton the first time on poor terms but that's ancient history now.

Good luck to Johnny too though. He's got a much better chance of seeing substantial field time with the Als, and despite the early move likely appreciates what that could mean to show NFL teams what he's got. His agent already expressed thanks and praise to the Cats for "doing the right thing".

Guess we'll see if this attracts some more fans to Percival Molson too this year and next, but the Als gave up a heck of a lot for a player that is likely not a long-term QB for them.

Last edited by ScreamingViking; Jul 23, 2018 at 6:18 AM.
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  #735  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 1:20 PM
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Is Andrew Harris in MOP conversation?
Chris O’Leary: cfl.ca July 21, 2018

Article singing the praises of Andrew Harris, who has just passed Jon Cornish on the list of all time Canadian running backs.

What stands out is this graphic showing what a great career Normie Kwong had. Kwong had an interesting enough story that he should have a movie made about him

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  #736  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 1:26 PM
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Trade opens immediate playing time for Manziel
Chris O’Leary: cfl.ca July 22, 2018

In a span of three days, Johnny Manziel went from having his name chanted at Tim Horton’s Field in Hamilton, to being the quarterback-on-deck for the Montreal Alouettes.

As the Ticats played out the final minutes of a disappointing 31-20 loss to the Saskatchewan Roughriders, fans in their black and gold Manziel jerseys chanted his name, hoping to finally get a glimpse of the quarterback they’d waited over a year to see on the field.

The Ticats didn’t grant that wish. Manziel stayed on the sideline, sometimes wearing his helmet, sometimes not, occasionally squatting on the sideline watching Jeremiah Masoli finish out the game.

Even getting Manziel to this point, under contact, in uniform felt like a saga unto itself. Now, it ends abruptly with Sunday night’s five-player trade.

There may have never been a player so important to a CFL team that never actually recorded a stat in a regular-season game. In trading Manziel, the Ticats get immediately better with the additions of defensive lineman Jamaal Westerman and receiver Chris Williams. With the Als’ first-round picks in 2020 and 2021, the Ticats have the opportunity to add high-end Canadian talent down the road.

The fans’ chants for Manziel weren’t going anywhere and he was stuck behind a quarterback that, while struggling to find the end zone over his last three games, will have a career year if he stays healthy. Masoli doesn’t deserve to be a part of a QB controversy and the Ticats used arguably the most valuable commodity in the league to their advantage to get better.

Things are less certain on the Als’ end of the trade. Manziel has seemed to have said and done all of the right things since he arrived in Hamilton. He didn’t complain about his role behind Masoli and has seemed to be intent on learning the CFL game while he’s waited for his turn. There is no question that in Montreal, Manziel will see the field. Immediately after announcing the trade, the team invited fans to come to McGill on Thursday night to see his first game.

In Montreal, there will be no easing into a game that can take a quarterback years to learn and be successful in. There is no baby-stepping into water here; it’s baptism by fire, or in the case of Thursday night, the Edmonton Eskimos’ defensive line.

Manziel should be grateful that the trade includes tackle Tony Washington and guard Landon Rice. Washington has made a career of protecting the best QBs in the league — Henry Burris, Ricky Ray, Mike Reilly and Masoli — and should help allow Manziel the time to operate that Montreal’s quarterbacks haven’t had this season.

In the short-term, the Als may have addressed their biggest need. The team has changed its starting quarterback 14 times since Anthony Calvillo retired in 2014 and would love to be able to have the wheel stop spinning with Manziel. That’s not a guarantee, though. For all of the hype that’s come with him and the positive signs he showed in the preseason, Manziel has yet to see a regular-season snap. No one knows how he’ll do if he gets onto the field in Montreal on Thursday night.

The situation isn’t perfect. The Als are 1-4, are being outscored 148-69 this season and just sent one of their best offensive and defensive players away in this trade. All indications are that at the end of his contract after the 2019 season, he’ll want to get back to the NFL. The Alouettes will have a lot of work to do and a short time to turn themselves around if they’re going to maximize this opportunity.

Still, that opportunity is tantalizing. Manziel will bring a spike of interest on both sides of the border to a team that’s in need of it. If the Alouettes’ three-season playoff drought and slow start to this season dropped them out of your focus, this will make them must-see TV, or should nudge frustrated fans back to the stadium.

It’s not the way he pictured it, or perhaps how anyone who follows the CFL thought it might play out, but Johnny Manziel is going into the game and that’s exciting.
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  #737  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 2:25 PM
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Is Andrew Harris in MOP conversation?
Chris O’Leary: cfl.ca July 21, 2018

Article singing the praises of Andrew Harris, who has just passed Jon Cornish on the list of all time Canadian running backs.

What stands out is this graphic showing what a great career Normie Kwong had. Kwong had an interesting enough story that he should have a movie made about him

Norm Kwong's last season was 1960... it's staggering that his record has lasted that long.

I agree that his story is pretty amazing, Kwong was a true larger than life kind of guy.
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  #738  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
I think it is more in relation the number of pro sports teams in Toronto the Argos have to compete with. You have the Leafs and Raptors eating up headlines and tv time from october to june. You have the jays from april to sept. You got TFC now too the last few years. That leaves the argos at Toronto Marlies level of notoriety in the city. Compare that to the other CFL markets most just have to deal with the hockey team and maybe a MLS team. The sporting dollar and attention span seems to only go so far.
Agree with most of that. I'll add that in Toronto immigrants just don't assimilate into the culture of the city; they ignore it and create a new culture. I suppose it has to do with numbers. There are so many immigrants here that it swamped the domestic culture and displaced it. There was very little adoption of what was already here.

How to fix this? I don't think one can conclude that once something is gone its gone forever. If interest in football can fall, it can also rise. It's going to be very tough to do but it can be done. It will take 20-30 years of small gradual inroads.

The CFL is invisible in Toronto. They can't leave it all up to the Argonauts to solve and should be front and centre in the efforts to build the brand. They need to be visible at high school games, help schools establish teams, build high school fields, sponsor events, and get people who are already in football to show up at Argonaut games. I played in a flag football league for 5 years and the CFL was no where to be seen. They could have done little things like put up a banner at our games, sponsor teams, entice us to games with beer, etc. But they did nothing. The result is that we attended one game a year and only about 30 people out of 100+ in the league would attend.

The CFL and Argonauts should also be asking the RedBlacks for help. They managed to make football a big thing there. If they're not talking to the RedBlacks that's an obvious oversight.
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World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
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  #739  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 5:09 PM
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Agree with most of that. I'll add that in Toronto immigrants just don't assimilate into the culture of the city; they ignore it and create a new culture. I suppose it has to do with numbers. There are so many immigrants here that it swamped the domestic culture and displaced it. There was very little adoption of what was already here.

How to fix this? I don't think one can conclude that once something is gone its gone forever. If interest in football can fall, it can also rise. It's going to be very tough to do but it can be done. It will take 20-30 years of small gradual inroads.

The CFL is invisible in Toronto. They can't leave it all up to the Argonauts to solve and should be front and centre in the efforts to build the brand. They need to be visible at high school games, help schools establish teams, build high school fields, sponsor events, and get people who are already in football to show up at Argonaut games. I played in a flag football league for 5 years and the CFL was nowhere to be seen. They could have done little things like put up a banner at our games, sponsor teams, entice us to games with beer, etc. But they did nothing. The result is that we attended one game a year and only about 30 people out of 100+ in the league would attend.

The CFL and Argonauts should also be asking the RedBlacks for help. They managed to make football a big thing there. If they're not talking to the RedBlacks that's an obvious oversight.
Lots of CFL fans in the GTA, just not in central Toronto. CFL needs to just be honest and embrace suburban Toronto where the bulk of Argos fans have been since the 90s. Italians in Vaughn and working-class families in the Durham region have always been big supporters of the Argos. You could have a successful Argos team in a more suburban location and all would be fine. When the BMO Field trial eventually fails this will be the eventual end game for the Argos. Until the Argos accept this reality they won't get fully above water from where they are. The move the BMO Field proved this because atmosphere solves nothing if the bulk of your suburban fan can't get to the game.

Lots of folks try to compare the fact that TFC fills the place and the Argos don't. Both teams have totally different fan profiles and demographics with many TFC fans being based in the 416 Toronto area, and downtown who have a much easier time getting to the games. So the current fanbase of the Argos can't access games well and it is going to take time (a long time) to build up a new fan base from the ground up. As others have mentioned the Toronto demographics are to blame. The Argos take blame also because there is a steady HS football culture here in Toronto but the Argos were stone-feet to latch onto it. Many CIS schools and Big 10 schools have bridged relationships with many of the HS programs. When Big Michigan is luring prospective GTA HS kids, and they already have something in the bag from a Queens the Argos, who have no visibility in Toronto are not even on their radar.
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  #740  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I'll add that in Toronto immigrants just don't assimilate into the culture of the city; they ignore it and create a new culture. I suppose it has to do with numbers. There are so many immigrants here that it swamped the domestic culture and displaced it. There was very little adoption of what was already here.
I can agree with some of that but that doesn't explain it not affecting hockey or baseball.

I know from my interactions on soccer forums that the real zealots who want everything to die except soccer would criticize baseball as not being a sport and the players were fat and lazy. That hatred of baseball quickly shifted to the Argos once it became known they were moving to BMO, until that time they never gave football a second look. These zealots were never crazy enough to attack hockey because even they could figure out how unpopular that would be and how stupid it would make them look.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
How to fix this? I don't think one can conclude that once something is gone its gone forever. If interest in football can fall, it can also rise. It's going to be very tough to do but it can be done. It will take 20-30 years of small gradual inroads.
Totally agree, and almost every team in the CFL is an example of that. Almost all, except Edmonton were near moribund or dead (Montreal) and Ottawa failed twice.

I've often heard the claim that people in Toronto don't hate the Argos they are apathetic, meaning that not caring is even worse than being hated. But that argument can be countered by the great example set in Ottawa. Jeff Hunt himself said he didn't mind the apathy by young people in Ottawa because they had no preconceived notions about football in Ottawa. They didn't know or care about the history and could be marketed to in the way necessary to engage them.

If a traditional mode of marketing is needed to bring people back, I don't necessarily think it will take 20-30 years. In this day and age change is very dynamic, both good and bad. Argo attendance historically is very cyclical. While we are seeing historic lows now, there have been some not so great seasons many times before and it has rebounded.

I am sure some will say, it's trending down and translate that into meaning forever. Well, as isaidso stated they can trend back as well, see Argo attendance from the past


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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The CFL is invisible in Toronto. They can't leave it all up to the Argonauts to solve and should be front and centre in the efforts to build the brand. They need to be visible at high school games, help schools establish teams, build high school fields, sponsor events, and get people who are already in football to show up at Argonaut games. I played in a flag football league for 5 years and the CFL was no where to be seen. They could have done little things like put up a banner at our games, sponsor teams, entice us to games with beer, etc. But they did nothing. The result is that we attended one game a year and only about 30 people out of 100+ in the league would attend.
I think you are seeing change there and you will see a much greater emphasis on the introduction of non contact football as a way to introduce the game. There is a growing movement afoot to look at the issues of "cocooning" our children and the harmful effects that can have later in life. That goes hand in hand with the concussion issue and the reluctance of some parents to not want their children to play football for reasons both real and imagined.

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
The CFL and Argonauts should also be asking the RedBlacks for help. They managed to make football a big thing there. If they're not talking to the RedBlacks that's an obvious oversight.
I would be quite sure they have consulted with the RedBlacks but MLSE is likely a pretty prideful company that thinks they know their market. But that comes back to the same question I've asked before as to why young people in Ottawa would be different than those in Toronto.
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