HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 9:30 PM
yuriandrade's Avatar
yuriandrade yuriandrade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 392
London just overtook New York in population (city proper). When do you think they will ever overtake New York on metro population (Southeast England vs CSA)?

In a 75 km radius, from Midtown and Charing Cross, live 18.7 million people and 16.3 million respectively.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 10:21 PM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is online now
Can't knock the hustle
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey - Somerset County
Posts: 19,583
^^^^

What is fueling this London population growth? City is adding so much. So expensive, yet adding so much?

I could ponder that its international migration fueling the growth or is it more domestic?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 11:44 PM
ue ue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Notleygrad, Albertastan
Posts: 8,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
London just overtook New York in population (city proper). When do you think they will ever overtake New York on metro population (Southeast England vs CSA)?

In a 75 km radius, from Midtown and Charing Cross, live 18.7 million people and 16.3 million respectively.
Isn't London "city proper" Greater London, which is more of a metropolitan area of sorts?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 11:58 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 14,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
London just overtook New York in population (city proper). When do you think they will ever overtake New York on metro population (Southeast England vs CSA)?
Never. And with Brexit, even less likely. The gap, long-term, will widen.

Also, the City of London didn't overtake NYC. Metro London overtook NYC, which is a different, apples to oranges political classification.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 1:05 AM
mhays mhays is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue View Post
Isn't London "city proper" Greater London, which is more of a metropolitan area of sorts?
No, that basically includes the inner suburban ring, not the outer ring of towns and suburbs that are also full of commuters.
__________________
When did people starting thinking "alot" was a word?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 4:22 AM
TexasPlaya's Avatar
TexasPlaya TexasPlaya is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: ATX-HTOWN
Posts: 2,562
Christ.... the NYC folks with their panties in a wad over not being the greatest ever with London winning in some sort of metric.....

I still can't put my finger on how or why Houston is having such high population growth aside from immigration as Houston is barely above stagnant economically.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 7:59 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Never. And with Brexit, even less likely. The gap, long-term, will widen.

Also, the City of London didn't overtake NYC. Metro London overtook NYC, which is a different, apples to oranges political classification.
No, it's not.

The City of London is an archaic unit that refers to the square mile of the financial district and has less than 10,000 residents. No one talks about the City except as shorthand for financial services (much like 'Wall Street').

The City of London, the City of Westminster and 31 other boroughs make up the city (lower case 'c') of London as a municipal entity. Those London boroughs have less devolved political authority than NYC's five boroughs. There is one mayor for Greater London just as there is one mayor for the five boroughs of NYC. The metropolitan area of London is significantly bigger and extends into the neighboring Home Counties.

Now, what is true is that while London is now more populous than NYC, its metro area will never become larger. London covers about 600 square miles to NYC's roughly 350 square miles, so it is bound to have more people (even though much more of it is given over to parkland and open space). But it also represents a much larger share of the metro area than NYC proper, and NYC is denser.

One of the key differences is that NYC has a big physical barrier (the Hudson River) directly adjacent to its core business districts. If you added another ~250 square miles of New Jersey directly across the river from Manhattan (which would mean Hudson County and about 80% of Bergen County), then NYC would cover the same physical area as London but its population would be about 10 million people.

It is actually quite possible than London will add another 1.5 million or so residents eventually, to have the same population as NYC within 600 square miles. What it will never have is the continuous urban sprawl up 2/3 of the length of Long Island, into northern NJ, and up coastal Connecticut.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by 10023; May 16, 2017 at 8:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 8:00 AM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
^^^^

What is fueling this London population growth? City is adding so much. So expensive, yet adding so much?

I could ponder that its international migration fueling the growth or is it more domestic?
It's mostly international migration yes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 8:06 AM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 518
NYC loses out on city proper population because larger parts of its urban area over in NJ are not counted, even places just a couple of miles from Broadway like Hoboken.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 8:12 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
NYC loses out on city proper population because larger parts of its urban area over in NJ are not counted, even places just a couple of miles from Broadway like Hoboken.
See above. There are 600k people in Hudson County and 900k people in Bergen County, which together are about 290 square miles.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 2:05 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 29,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post

I still can't put my finger on how or why Houston is having such high population growth aside from immigration as Houston is barely above stagnant economically.
We have the same situation in Canada with Calgary. the population is expanding even though the economy is contracting. clearly there is a time lag.
__________________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere.Elie Wiesel
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 2:44 PM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is online now
Can't knock the hustle
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey - Somerset County
Posts: 19,583
I'm still waiting for a recent daytime population study for various cities. Would be interesting to see stats for London and NY.

Stats measuring peak population, commuters in/out, weekday vs weekend pop stats.

I recall a 2012 NYU Wagner study said that on any given weekday, there are 4 million folks in Manhattan. Will be higher in 2017.

Still, 4 million over 22-23 sq miles is a density of 174k/sq-mile.

I'd say over 300 land sq miles, the daytime population has to be 10 million on any given weekday. Just a general approximation for 2017. I don't think the Census results truly factor in illegals. Last I've heard, estimates put it at 500k for illegals.

If we factor in tourism numbers, 60 million/year and rising, we come out to a conservative 200k per day. Summer will be higher, but just as a stats exercise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 3:29 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post


One of the key differences is that NYC has a big physical barrier (the Hudson River) directly adjacent to its core business districts.
the river has nothing to do with anything about that. nyc will never be able to grow physically in area as london has from the 1960s-2000 (and could do again anytime in the future). in fact, if anything, its the opposite in nyc as it is more likely to lose staten island to nj someday.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 3:44 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
the river has nothing to do with anything about that. nyc will never be able to grow physically in area as london has from the 1960s-2000 (and could do again anytime in the future). in fact, if anything, its the opposite in nyc as it is more likely to lose staten island to nj someday.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the point that I was making.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 3:48 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
I'm still waiting for a recent daytime population study for various cities. Would be interesting to see stats for London and NY.

Stats measuring peak population, commuters in/out, weekday vs weekend pop stats.

I recall a 2012 NYU Wagner study said that on any given weekday, there are 4 million folks in Manhattan. Will be higher in 2017.

Still, 4 million over 22-23 sq miles is a density of 174k/sq-mile.

I'd say over 300 land sq miles, the daytime population has to be 10 million on any given weekday. Just a general approximation for 2017. I don't think the Census results truly factor in illegals. Last I've heard, estimates put it at 500k for illegals.

If we factor in tourism numbers, 60 million/year and rising, we come out to a conservative 200k per day. Summer will be higher, but just as a stats exercise.
The latest stats from the London mayor's office were from 2014, and they say "over 10 million". Most of the incremental is of course in central London. So that sounds about right for NY too.

https://data.london.gov.uk/apps_and_...f-london-2014/
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 4:14 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
This has absolutely nothing to do with the point that I was making.
yes it does. the fact that nj is another state has everything to do with what you were trying to say and nothing to do with water, just as your description of what makes up london has everything to do with the historically recent boundary changes there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 5:39 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
yes it does. the fact that nj is another state has everything to do with what you were trying to say and nothing to do with water, just as your description of what makes up london has everything to do with the historically recent boundary changes there.
The river is the reason that NJ is another state, and the reason why it will continue to be another state. The river is the reason why NYC only expanded in 3 directions from its core, instead of in all directions like London (or Paris, or numerous other cities), because it forms a physical boundary to one side.

For comparison, the Thames is a narrow river (even narrower than the East River) which didn't form the same sort of barrier to amalgamation with the other bank: https://instagram.com/p/BPf036SB83W/
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by 10023; May 16, 2017 at 6:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 6:29 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Former Admin
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 20,650
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
No, it's not.

The City of London is an archaic unit that refers to the square mile of the financial district and has less than 10,000 residents. No one talks about the City except as shorthand for financial services (much like 'Wall Street').

The City of London, the City of Westminster and 31 other boroughs make up the city (lower case 'c') of London as a municipal entity. Those London boroughs have less devolved political authority than NYC's five boroughs. There is one mayor for Greater London just as there is one mayor for the five boroughs of NYC. The metropolitan area of London is significantly bigger and extends into the neighboring Home Counties.

Now, what is true is that while London is now more populous than NYC, its metro area will never become larger. London covers about 600 square miles to NYC's roughly 350 square miles, so it is bound to have more people (even though much more of it is given over to parkland and open space). But it also represents a much larger share of the metro area than NYC proper, and NYC is denser.

One of the key differences is that NYC has a big physical barrier (the Hudson River) directly adjacent to its core business districts. If you added another ~250 square miles of New Jersey directly across the river from Manhattan (which would mean Hudson County and about 80% of Bergen County), then NYC would cover the same physical area as London but its population would be about 10 million people.

It is actually quite possible than London will add another 1.5 million or so residents eventually, to have the same population as NYC within 600 square miles. What it will never have is the continuous urban sprawl up 2/3 of the length of Long Island, into northern NJ, and up coastal Connecticut.
So is London as we all know it, technically called "Greater London"?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 6:58 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 14,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
No, it's not.

The City of London is an archaic unit that refers to the square mile of the financial district and has less than 10,000 residents. No one talks about the City except as shorthand for financial services (much like 'Wall Street').
I never referred to the City of London, which is also not an apples-to-apples comparison.

There is no apples-to-apples comparison with NYC. The City of London would be a silly comparison, and Greater London would be a silly comparison. One is essentially a neighborhood, and the other is a metropolitan governing structure.

I agree that Greater London is a less silly comparison, but still not reasonable. Half of Greater London is suburban or semi-rural, and it is legally a region, not a city. 9% of Greater London is farmland.

IMO the most reasonable comparison is metro-to-metro, so at least you can form some rough analogy. Most people peg London's MSA/CSA in the 12-16 million range or thereabouts, so it's extremely unlikely, even discounting Brexit, to assume a doubling of population in our lifetimes, while other metro areas around the world stagnate.

But, given that Brexit is a reality, it would be extremely foolish to assume London's incredible recent growth would continue. As everyone knows, its bedrock industry will disperse somewhat and its immigrant flows will be restricted and the UK is untethered from Europe. London basically grows because of financial services and immigration. Its growth rates going forward will probably be slow and steady, like on the Continent, as its advantages have been eliminated.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 7:05 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,924
Agreed Crawford.
__________________
When did people starting thinking "alot" was a word?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:49 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.