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  #121  
Old Posted May 20, 2017, 8:16 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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It's also US liability laws and drinking age laws (the penalties and responsibilities, not just that they exist). How can someone be carded if there isn't a door, and how do you divvy up liability?
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  #122  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 6:30 AM
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The 2016 census results were recently released here and although metro populations will be done later (September IIRC), we're seeing all sorts of changes across the states.

Victoria had a revision in population estimate to reflect the census.. saw a record 146,000 to December 2016. (Generally 85-90% of Victoria's population is in Melb Metro).

In a post-mining boom/GFC world, we continue to hoover up loads and loads of population growth.

Good explainer: Melbourne population growth blows the blinkin' doors off



Also density nerds, recommend Chris Loader on Charting Transport re: Melb changes.

How is Melbourne's population density changing? (2006-2016)

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  #123  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 6:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
^^^^^

People go outside too. Cafe's filled both inside and out. Restaurants with people eating outside. The compactness of it all means plazas and small parks are full of folks. I've noticed that the street life factor is poppin' in European cities. Sadly, the suburbs and the distant nature has separated things like restaurants or movie theaters or parks. The car centric nature of it really does a number on street activity.

Now if we are talking traffic, thats what U.S. cities are good for.

Daytime population wise, office parks and suburban work places have again done a number on the figures for cores. Many people in theory never have to set foot in a city. They can live, play, work all in the burbs.
Having spent about 10 days in the last month showing out of town guests around my city of San Francisco, this entire post rings as wrong as wrong can be. Admittedly its July which is a month when the town is heavily populated with European tourists, but everywhere you go is a sea of humanity--and it lasts long into the evening. The sidewalks, parks, everywhere literally packed almost to impassability. Several parts of town, most notably Columbus Ave which is the main drag of North Beach (SF's "little Italy), but also several alleys in the Union Square area that are blocked off from traffic and filled with tables, are lined with outdoor dining such as (but the tables are lined up like this at one place after another the length of the street to Washington Squre Park which is also routinely crowded):


https://www.google.com/search?q=Colu...X4RHiBlcWeMYM:

And the parks . . . . This is popular Dolores Park on a typical sunny Sunday:


https://sf.curbed.com/2016/5/24/1176...k-reservations

All 4th of July weekend Golden Gate Park was also packed--there must have been hundreds of people in line for the Japanese Tea Garden and crowds in front of the museums.
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  #124  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 1:51 PM
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san francisco isn't your average american city.
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  #125  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 5:18 PM
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San Francisco is anything but the average American city.

Most American cities, particularly midsize ones, are basically ghost towns. A city of 200k in Europe has a lively city center, bustling restaurants, shopping streets, cultural venues and parks. In the same size city in America, the only crowded places are probably the Wal-Mart parking lot and the big street with all the drive-thrus.
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  #126  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 5:39 PM
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^ riiiiggghhhtt




of course mid sized american cities used to be bustling downtown and have a long way to go to get back to that, but obviously they are working on it. btw that pic is cleveland, but you could easily find similar elsewhere.
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  #127  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post

of course mid sized american cities used to be bustling downtown and have a long way to go to get back to that, but obviously they are working on it. btw that pic is cleveland, but you could easily find similar elsewhere.
Let's be real, downtown Cleveland is pretty dead. No way is a European city of 3 million remotely similar.

You're showing a picture of a nightlife block near the stadia, probably on a weekend night, after a game or event. I've been to that block, right off Euclid. I bet two blocks away there isn't a soul in sight.

An equivalent sized European city would have like five downtown department stores, robust subway system, high streets packed during daylight hours, huge main train station, etc.
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  #128  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 5:58 PM
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Let's be real, downtown Cleveland is pretty dead. No way is a European city of 3 million remotely similar.

You're showing a picture of a nightlife block near the stadia, probably on a weekend night, after a game or event. I've been to that block, right off Euclid. I bet two blocks away there isn't a soul in sight.

An equivalent sized European city would have like five downtown department stores, robust subway system, high streets packed during daylight hours, huge main train station, etc.
no lets be real and read what i wrote and not kneejerk moments after i wrote that. all of these cities used to be as bustling downtown if not more so than their european peers. that is fact. maybe you are very young, i dk, but some of us are old enough to remember those days. and you know perfectly well why they are not anymore. that said, most of them, from rustbelt cities, to the south, west, northeast, etc etc are making impressive strides in bring people back downtown. buildings are being renovated left and right, there is new construction and its picking up all over the place. are they times square? no. on a par again with euro peer cities? no. btw - cle has fallen to 300k-ish, not 3M.
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  #129  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 6:49 PM
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It's true that cities in the US often have fractions of the pedestrian activity level of their typical European peers.

Cleveland is a city of three million mrnyc. You're confusing the city limits with the actual functioning city.
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  #130  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 8:27 PM
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Yeah, other things being equal a 300k city immediately surrounded by suburbs of 2.7m should really be busier on the streets than a 300k city surrounded by nothing but open fields.
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  #131  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 9:55 PM
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Maybe someone can post all US and European urban areas of between 150,000 and 250,000 and we can compare.
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  #132  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 9:56 PM
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Yeah, other things being equal a 300k city immediately surrounded by suburbs of 2.7m should really be busier on the streets than a 300k city surrounded by nothing but open fields.
Cleveland is a a city of around 1.3 million people. Northeast Ohio includes many other cities and towns,with a regional population of around 2.7 million.

You'd think people would not feed this kind of wrong information on this site of all places.
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  #133  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 9:57 PM
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We should really do a deep dive into northeast Ohio to see if the only action is at the local walmarts as 10023 says.
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  #134  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 9:59 PM
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Cleveland is a a city of around 1.3 million people. Northeast Ohio includes many other cities and towns,with a regional population of around 2.7 million.
cleveland's Urban Area population is ~1.8M, according to the census bureau.

that's probably a better ballpark figure to use for "the city" than the 1.3M figure you came up with.


cleveland MSA is ~2.0M

cleveland CSA is ~3.5M

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland
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  #135  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
San Francisco is anything but the average American city.

Most American cities, particularly midsize ones, are basically ghost towns. A city of 200k in Europe has a lively city center, bustling restaurants, shopping streets, cultural venues and parks. In the same size city in America, the only crowded places are probably the Wal-Mart parking lot and the big street with all the drive-thrus.
Thank you.

See some understood where I was going. Notable exceptions, but a lot of American cities are lacking in pedestrian density. Again, the suburbs, lower density, city limit size, and the sprawled out nature lead to this.

If we think of SF or NYC or even parts of Chicago (just to name a few, there are more) as the standard to what every U.S. city is really like, you might be disappointed. Again, some exceptions, but it holds water I feel.

With regards to Europe, I have seen cities that have 100k that feel much larger, and the streets are livelier. Not to be a Europe vs U.S. thing, but European cities have a lot more going on compared to your average small U.S. city; sometimes medium sized as well. Density has a big role in it, along with the way it was designed. Much of the U.S. sprawls, and this really takes a bite of what cities could in theory be. Much livelier.

I will defend the fact that the suburbs have become areas where one can work, live, and play. Some people never have to set foot in a city. A harsh truth, but it can be seen in every state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Let's be real, downtown Cleveland is pretty dead. No way is a European city of 3 million remotely similar.

You're showing a picture of a nightlife block near the stadia, probably on a weekend night, after a game or event. I've been to that block, right off Euclid. I bet two blocks away there isn't a soul in sight.

An equivalent sized European city would have like five downtown department stores, robust subway system, high streets packed during daylight hours, huge main train station, etc.
Its true.

One country that I have been too a lot is Spain, and some cities feel massive, yet they only have 400 to 800k people. Even 100k sometimes feels way bigger than it really is on paper.
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  #136  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 11:28 PM
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I was in Spain recently. Anywhere land was limited (coasts, mountains) even the villages seemed to have nothing but six-story buildings, basically similar to the density of the big cities.
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  #137  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2017, 11:41 PM
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i wouldnt say always ghost town but damned sleepy overall. there's no comparison to europe pound for pound, with exceptions.
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  #138  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 2:30 AM
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In Europe, city centres are connected by subways, railways, tramways and bus lines. It is indeed the centre of the action.

In North America, the population is enthralled by the automobile and big box stores. Cities have become diffused. Downtown is no longer the centre of the action. Actually, nowhere is.

In Europe, the sidewalks are crowded with people who have arrived by public transport.

In North America, the roads are crowded with cars as people need a car to get anywhere. No wonder North American cities appear to be not lively as not many people are actually walking on the streets.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 3:25 AM
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And if you want to compare the commute patterns of both cities they're remarkably similar.

Notably in terms of the outer metro. The very low thresholds of 1.5-2.6% says it all really, despite that doubling the catchment sizes of both cities, which add 4 million to NYC's contiguous population and a whopping 7 million to London's, thanks to high density countryside:

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...n-and-new-york


"Manhattan is a somewhat stronger draw to the suburban counties, with 18% of employees from the inner counties and 8% from the outer counties. The London CBD draws 17% of its workers from the inner counties and 5% from the outer counties. Despite the comprehensive suburban rail system in New York and both suburban and national rail system in London, comparatively few workers commute from beyond the outer counties --- 2.6% in London and 1.5% in New York "
Total non-sequitor, but there are counties in NY's CSA which historically have been considered Philadelphia's suburbs (ex. Mercer County NJ). I believe a decade back the US Census literally ripped them out of Philadelphia's CSA calculation and literally gave them to NY. There are others in East-Central PA that are now considered extent NYC but in reality are Philadelphia-centric.

I suppose this has to do with the increasingly extreme commutes of NY workers, who in some cases are moving further and further from the city to own something. It's not uncommon for people to take daily jitneys from the Poconos (in Pennsylvania) to commute all the way to NYC for work (2+ hours each way).
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  #140  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 8:16 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
In Europe, city centres are connected by subways, railways, tramways and bus lines. It is indeed the centre of the action.

In North America, the population is enthralled by the automobile and big box stores. Cities have become diffused. Downtown is no longer the centre of the action. Actually, nowhere is.

In Europe, the sidewalks are crowded with people who have arrived by public transport.

In North America, the roads are crowded with cars as people need a car to get anywhere. No wonder North American cities appear to be not lively as not many people are actually walking on the streets.
This isn't necessarily true. There are many cities in Europe that don't have mass transit systems but still have pedestrian-centric downtowns.
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