LRT Underground downtown

[wild wild west]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

And all I am saying is that the West LRT wasn't the wrong investment that should be cut to pay for four car trains.

The NW extension to Tuscany and the NE extension to Saddle Ridge would pay for four car trains rather nicely. Without decreasing service levels to those communities to the degree that cancelling the west line would.

I agree if capacity is the issue on the existing lines, extending service to more people is not a way to solve that problem.

OK, then I guess that we agree on some major points.

To turn things around, I would be supportive of WLRT, provided that Council recognizes the need to re-open those regressive west side ASP's to allow for much higher densities, particularly around the proposed stations. My fear is that the Mayor and Council haven't shown much of a backbone in dealing with west side NIMBYs, and the Mayor's track record of shortsightedness in voting against even minor amendments to ASP's to allow for more density on the west side has been very disappointing to say the least. In other words, if you're gonna build WLRT, recognize the increase in density and employment that needs to be permitted in order to make the investment worthwhile.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by wild wild west

OK, then I guess that we agree on some major points.

To turn things around, I would be supportive of WLRT, provided that Council recognizes the need to re-open those regressive west side ASP's to allow for much higher densities, particularly around the proposed stations. My fear is that the Mayor and Council haven't shown much of a backbone in dealing with west side NIMBYs, and the Mayor's track record of shortsightedness in voting against even minor amendments to ASP's to allow for more density on the west side has been very disappointing to say the least. In other words, if you're gonna build WLRT, recognize the increase in density and employment that needs to be permitted in order to make the investment worthwhile.

I would direct you to the West LRT Land Use Study, where they are putting forward recommendations for TOD and intensification through the ARP process. This is for 26th Street, Westbrook, and 45th Street Station for now.

The draft ARPs goes to council hearing in 2009 according to the newsletter.

[wild wild west]

/\That's a good start, provided Council actually approves them as envisioned. But they also have to revisit that awful East Springbank ASP, to maximize benefit of that 69th & 17th station. And yes, I am fully aware that I sound like a curmudgeon!

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

That is another one of my old boss' projects that I got the priveledge of working on before I moved to the Roads business unit. It is sanitary sewer related.

Just a quick further-to on Michael's sewer project:

The tender bids closed on the tunnel project on 30 October, with three bids ranging from $14-mil to $27-mil. Metro tunnels under the Bow River up to Crescent Heights would more than likely be much wider, and of course much longer, but the sewer project as tendered would imply at the very least that getting under the Bow River is not, in and of itself, an insurmountable technical challenge for extending the C-Train directly north of Eau Claire.

[reflexzero]

Maybe they could consider an alternative to underground and craft an elevated metro plaza at the +15 level. Raise the LRT up, and make a nice clean exit and entry into the downtown core.

This would avoid the water table problems, and all the associated problems of existing underground infrastructure. Street level crossings for transit in the 21st century is not indicative of progress, but there is more than one solution.

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by reflexzero

Maybe they could consider an alternative to underground and craft an elevated metro plaza at the +15 level. Raise the LRT up, and make a nice clean exit and entry into the downtown core.

This would avoid the water table problems, and all the associated problems of existing underground infrastructure. Street level crossings for transit in the 21st century is not indicative of progress, but there is more than one solution.

I always thought about this too. I'm sure there's a way to design/build it that wouldn't be obtrusive.

Detroit has a people mover downtown, which runs elevated and all the stations are inside office towers. Of course it isn't as large as the C-Train or as busy, but it works well there and is integrated into the buildings quite nicely.

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by SubwayRev

I always thought about this too. I'm sure there's a way to design/build it that wouldn't be obtrusive.

Detroit has a people mover [added hyperlink] downtown, which runs elevated and all the stations are inside office towers. Of course it isn't as large as the C-Train or as busy [my emphasis], but it works well there and is integrated into the buildings quite nicely.

A three-mile-long loop of early-eighties gadgetbahn technology in Detroit with a daily ridership of 7300 is hardly a fair comparison either for Detroit or for Calgary.

The main reason why no-one's given much thought to elevated LRT through downtown Calgary is that integrating a +15 C-Train with a +15 pedestrian system would be disruptive to existing foot traffic and costly enough to implement to make downtown metro look cheap. What might be feasible would be pulling it over the CPR mainline downtown--but then there's that +30 park system to tie into the system as well, which by the time you leave headroom for CPR traffic and a lower deck for LRT brings it up to a somewhat inconvenient +35.

[SubwayRev]

I agree that an elevated line would be pretty ugly, but it also might actually happen, where I don't see an underground line happening for a long, long, long time. If it took 25 years to finally start building the West line, an underground line could easily be 50+ years away.

I wouldn't want an elevated, Chicago style train weaving through downtown, but like Beltliner said, they're might be a way to integrate a line above the CPR tracks. It could acutally improve the visual on that strip of land, which is right now nothing but train tracks and parking lots.

[Surferguy]

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

[Arch26]

Originally Posted by Surferguy

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

Barf. There are much nicer ways of dealing with the CPR besides with parking garages. Except for the parks one the top surface, this sounds like planning policy straight from 1965. The issues with the CPR really involve developing the land of the ROW into something urban and livable, and creating better connectivity between the Beltline and Downtown. I see no reason why heavy handed strategies involving entombing the rail line in parking are necessary. It's just plain overkill.

[tdurden5573]

Originally Posted by Surferguy

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

Very Creative and interesting.... although idealy i would like to see the CPR tracks removed, there is no need for them, big eyesore and cuts downtown into a no-mans land. I think a parkade with a park would turn into a seedly place at night, most of the current downtown parks were opened up due to unwanted behaviour in the trees and bushes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Surferguy

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

Calgary consciously limits parking in downtown, we don't have the roads to handle it unless you want an elevated highway feeding directly into the parkade. (IE the south bypass)

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by tdurden5573

Very Creative and interesting.... although idealy i would like to see the CPR tracks removed, there is no need for them, big eyesore and cuts downtown into a no-mans land. I think a parkade with a park would turn into a seedly place at night, most of the current downtown parks were opened up due to unwanted behaviour in the trees and bushes.

When we want to put in a Go Train / West Coast Express style system in 20 or so years, we will be thankful we still have tracks into downtown. I don't think the benifits from pulling out the tracks, are even close to the costs to build a rail bypass.

[Arch26]

Originally Posted by tdurden5573

Very Creative and interesting.... although idealy i would like to see the CPR tracks removed, there is no need for them, big eyesore and cuts downtown into a no-mans land.

The tracks are still very important economically and may be able to be used in other ways in the future (eg/ commuter rail, high speed, etc.). They are also of historical significance and so IMO removing them would be a shame. Also, railways are really interesting to watch/experience. Instead of proposing such obvious and boring solutions like removing them, covering them in parking, or burying them, why not think of more creative ways to use the dead spaces adjacent to them? And also new and interesting ways to reconnect the Beltline to Downtown. It has the potential to be a really interesting area with the railway INTACT. Getting rid of them or hiding them would be a lost opportunity IMO. And besides, economically, it'll never happen.

[Jeffsey500]

Originally Posted by Surferguy

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

Ewwwwwww. Concrete monster + trees. Nice. The rail lines already scar downtown. It wouldn't help to build a taller scar and throw some trees on top. Think of the concrete monstrocity that would be the only thing visible on the ground. Hey, while we do that, lets throw in a highway on some level now! Hey, doesn't this sound a lot like an elevated highway project?

Hmmmmm, Boston just (or is almost) finished spending billions and billions of dollars to remove a giant elevated structure from that goes across the city centre. Unmistakable resembelance yes? Think of what it would do to downtown and the Belt Line? Instead of being separated by "no man's land" to quote another, we get a concrete wall (*cough cough Berlin Wall). But then again I guess we will have trees...

(I don't mean to be dis-respectful, but similar ideas have occured since the 1920s particularily the 60s-80s, many of which are being torn down right now. No point repeating history.)

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Arch26

The tracks are still very important economically and may be able to be used in other ways in the future (eg/ commuter rail, high speed, etc.). They are also of historical significance and so IMO removing them would be a shame. Also, railways are really interesting to watch/experience. Instead of proposing such obvious and boring solutions like removing them, covering them in parking, or burying them, why not think of more creative ways to use the dead spaces adjacent to them? And also new and interesting ways to reconnect the Beltline to Downtown. It has the potential to be a really interesting area with the railway INTACT. Getting rid of them or hiding them would be a lost opportunity IMO. And besides, economically, it'll never happen.

Not sure why you think hiding the tracks would be a lost opportunity. If they are going to stay they should be less obtrusive. Anyway, here is a link to a very interesting recent example that was done in Chicago.

http://www.millenniumpark.org/

I'm not sure how much we could do in Calgary with the way the long narrow strip of land the railroad tracks take up (east end of downtown would probably be much better for something like this) but it would be great to see something like Millennium Park in Calgary. Of course the most important things would be if we have the political will to do such a project and would the private sector help build it.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by Surferguy

I've sqaid it before and now again:

Build over the CPR tracks 5 levels, the entire length of downtown. Run the train through on the 2nd or third level. The rest of the structure is a parkade. Cap the whole thing with a big long and skinny park. Outdoor rinks, trees, plazas etc.

THree major positives - parking = solved, C-train at grade = no more, more greenspace in the core.

Discuss

It sounds like you want to run the great wall of China through dt Calgary, whatever gets built over the cpr tracks needs to intigrate city center and the beltline not drive a perminant wedge between them. Your idea shares a lot of similarities with Robert Moses' thankfully unbuilt Mid-Manhattan Expressway.

EDIT: This idea is actually genius if you sunk the whole structure underground.

[Arch26]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Not sure why you think hiding the tracks would be a lost opportunity. If they are going to stay they should be less obtrusive. Anyway, here is a link to a very interesting recent example that was done in Chicago.

I guess what I meant was that I still think people should be able to interact with the railway visually... experientially. Certainly I think the space within the ROW needs to be developed, but I think it that can easily be accomplished without going to the effort of burying the railway. The urban spaces would be much more interesting and the designs would be much more challenging (which is a good thing) if the railway were left where it is and the focus was instead on creating more lively spaces and better connections.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Not sure why you think hiding the tracks would be a lost opportunity. If they are going to stay they should be less obtrusive. Anyway, here is a link to a very interesting recent example that was done in Chicago.

http://www.millenniumpark.org/

I'm not sure how much we could do in Calgary with the way the long narrow strip of land the railroad tracks take up (east end of downtown would probably be much better for something like this) but it would be great to see something like Millennium Park in Calgary. Of course the most important things would be if we have the political will to do such a project and would the private sector help build it.

I always thought the vast area immediately west of downtown would be the ideal place for such a project, burrying not only the tracks, but Bow Trail as well, and finding a more attractive way to get 14th street across that area. This would create a pretty much contiguous park from Edworthy all the way to the Zoo.

[youngregina]

What about having every road that crosses the downtown lrt be built into small underpasses, thus creating a stop free lrt and allowing cars to move under the lrt.