Halifax Stadium Discussion

[ILoveHalifax]

I think any investment in transit should come from increased fares. It is time that those who ride should pay.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I think any investment in transit should come from increased fares. It is time that those who ride should pay.

Agreed. And those who live in the suburbs and in the rural areas should begin paying for the roads, water, and sewage systems they're using.

[someone123]

In San Francisco there is a transit system called BART. BART funding is a perennial issue, and a lot of people who drive instead of taking transit think that it should be funded by fares, not public money. After all, they pay for their vehicle and gas, so why shouldn't transit riders pay?

Every so often the BART tunnel between SF and Oakland has to shut down for one reason or another. Gridlock ensues, because all the people who would normally take the tunnel end up on the city's streets. The "I shouldn't pay for transit because I drive" crowd quickly changes its tune -- the transit tunnel that supposedly had nothing to do with them can't be reopened quickly enough!

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I think any investment in transit should come from increased fares. It is time that those who ride should pay.

That makes sense on the surface, but public transit is a public good, and it requires subsidies. There's not a transit system on the planet funded entirely by fares. Even New York's MTA is only supported 38% by farebox revenues. Another 38% comes from taxes and 12% from stuff like road tolls, plus some other miscellaneous sources.

By comparison, Metro Transit is 40% supported by fares.

Vancouver: 50%

Toronto's TTC: 70% (one of the highest rates in North America, and one of the reasons the system is so limited and plagued by creaky infrastructure and constant delays. The TTC's overall crumminess is estimated to cost the GTA's economy hundreds of millions of dollars a year due to gridlock and other inconveniences.)

Calgary Transit: 47% from fares, 47% from taxes, 6% from advertising.

It's definitely reasonable to try and get the farebox revenue up at Metro Transit, but it'll never pay for itself entirely. It is, however, one of the best uses of public money a government can make, in terms of supporting regional growth and prosperity.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

It's definitely reasonable to try and get the farebox revenue up at Metro Transit, but it'll never pay for itself entirely. It is, however, one of the best uses of public money a government can make, in terms of supporting regional growth and prosperity.

In an ideal world, we'd see an expansion of Halifax's public transit as well as an investment in a stadium.

And in a nearly-equal ideal (but perhaps more realistic) world, public transit would see an investment first, which would promote growth -- and then a stadium would be more feasible thereafter.

Halifax is getting there. A stadium will come. But our time for dealing with transit has already passed, and the problem is only going to mound.

[Waye Mason]

Transit in HRM used to be slightly over 50% covered by fares, and that was taken away by council forcing expansion into rural service that can never, ever get to that level, even if full.

For example, MetroX would have to cost $4.50-$5.00 each way to get to 50% subsidy, IF it is full, which it is to Tantallon, and is not to the Airport.

The struggle is that quality service can only be attained at a level that people can afford to pay in the dense areas. Council has been forcing coverage over quality for political reasons. I hope we can stop this now.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Transit in HRM used to be slightly over 50% covered by fares, and that was taken away by council forcing expansion into rural service that can never, ever get to that level, even if full.

For example, MetroX would have to cost $4.50-$5.00 each way to get to 50% subsidy, IF it is full, which it is to Tantallon, and is not to the Airport.

The struggle is that quality service can only be attained at a level that people can afford to pay in the dense areas. Council has been forcing coverage over quality for political reasons. I hope we can stop this now.

I agree. GO train service (and GO bus service) in the GTA (and fringe communities) has fares based on the travel distance. I don't see any reason for a flat rate to distant communities such as Porters Lake. For example, Milton, Ontario to Union Station in downtown Toronto is $9.20 one-way. Here is the fare calculator (it applies to trains and buses since the trains don't run all day) - http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/...alculator.aspx

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Transit in HRM used to be slightly over 50% covered by fares, and that was taken away by council forcing expansion into rural service that can never, ever get to that level, even if full.

Indeed. HRM is unique in Canadian cities in that there's no other metro transit system that has to service such far-flung areas as Sambro, Tantallon, Porters Lake, etc. These aren't suburban communities; they're rural areas that would never otherwise have transit. Most of those are only commuter (AM/PM) routes, but still...they're paying gas, vehicle costs, operator wages, for services that must recover next to nothing in fares.

Or, to put it this way: From Toronto's Union Station to the edge of Scarborough (the post-amalgamation edge of Toronto) is about 30 kilometres, mostly through consistently populated urban or suburban neighbourhoods. A lot of it is featureless low-density suburbia, but it's at least consistently built up. From downtown Halifax to Sambro is about the same distance, but it's mostly through the countryside. As Fenwick alluded to, if you want to go out to the boonies in the Toronto region, you take GO, which is a different, regional transit system with higher fares than the TTC.

Honestly, I don't know what the general feeling towards the HRM is, but of all the unpopular, costly amalgamations that have been foisted on Canadian cities in the last couple of decades, the HRM seems the most egregiously unfair to the urban core.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Indeed. HRM is unique in Canadian cities in that there's no other metro transit system that has to service such far-flung areas as Sambro, Tantallon, Porters Lake, etc. These aren't suburban communities; they're rural areas that would never otherwise have transit. Most of those are only commuter (AM/PM) routes, but still...they're paying gas, vehicle costs, operator wages, for services that must recover next to nothing in fares.

Or, to put it this way: From Toronto's Union Station to the edge of Scarborough (the post-amalgamation edge of Toronto) is about 30 kilometres, mostly through consistently populated urban or suburban neighbourhoods. A lot of it is featureless low-density suburbia, but it's at least consistently built up. From downtown Halifax to Sambro is about the same distance, but it's mostly through the countryside. As Fenwick alluded to, if you want to go out to the boonies in the Toronto region, you take GO, which is a different, regional transit system with higher fares than the TTC.

Honestly, I don't know what the general feeling towards the HRM is, but of all the unpopular, costly amalgamations that have been foisted on Canadian cities in the last couple of decades, the HRM seems the most egregiously unfair to the urban core.

I had one voter from eastern shore complain about bus service. She lived in Oyster Pond. Oyster Pond is the same distance from downtown Halifax as Newmarket is from Bay Street. You can get a bus from Newmarket to Bay, it is about 2.1 hours, costs over $20.00 and you have to transfer from one system to the next.

And of course there are not enough people in Oyster Pond and the whole shore that you could afford to do this, even if they were willing to pay $20.00 each way.

[halifaxboyns]

Before everyone thinks I have some major news on the stadium - I don't. But I was recently looking at some of my photos of Wrigley Field when I was in Chicago and I wanted to spark some discussion about a future stadium for HRM.

One of the things that impressed me greatly about Wrigley Field is that there is no parking around it. There are no lots, very limited on street parking. Essentially you have two options to get there: Transit, or park at a parking facility away from the field and be bused in. Now, my first thought was how could this possibly work well? But after going to see a game - it worked amazingly well. Going to the game with a bunch of the local planners, I learned a lot about how well that place worked!

The lack of local parking and busing/"L" training in means that people are literally stuck there; so there is actually been studies showing that people have a tendency to come much earlier than game time and spend more money. They go to the restaurants, bars and pubs and then to the game. Then they also have a tendency to do the same after...which means the restaurants and bars there do tremendously well.

The transportation system they have developed (busing and the subway/L) is very well setup. So with some forethought and good planning - HRM could do the same with designated bus routes from key points. One thing I didn't notice or see was any hotels near by - but I would think that such hotels close by would do wicked business during game season.

Now I know we all have different location preferences and I have said my preference is Shannon Park. With these ideas in mind - I ask you to vision something with me (which may also be workable to some degree at other sites).

Imagine a mixed use community of 8 to 12 storey buildings built next to the new stadium, along a 2 lane boulevarded street (tree lined), with a streetcar running along it that came from the Bridge Terminal. Along the water edge, a boardwalk with these mixed use buildings fronting to them, with cafes and restaurants with patios and condos above. A high speed ferry terminal in the cove (near the current smoke stacks) with a pocket park and plaza leading to the Boulevard and a street crossing to the Stadium. The stadium has limited parking (maybe 1 or 2 parkades which are built fronting to this boulevard - but have active uses on the ground floor (stores or restaurants). The back of house functions are tucked away behind the stadium, concealed by some mixed use buildings and the bus transit facility bringing people in is located where the commercial is on Wyse Road - with a sky walk bridge over the railway tracks.

I'm no artist (I can't draw to save my life) - but this sounds pretty cool.

[ILoveHalifax]

Great to see the stadium come up again. I was thinking about it the last few days. Lots of talk about civic pride with the Moose doing so well in hockey. Civic pride would go a long way with a CFL team.
Yes, I can envision your plan but would still prefer the Victoria General site. It has to come down soon, I hope. It would be so close to the universities as well.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Before everyone thinks I have some major news on the stadium - I don't. But I was recently looking at some of my photos of Wrigley Field when I was in Chicago and I wanted to spark some discussion about a future stadium for HRM.

One of the things that impressed me greatly about Wrigley Field is that there is no parking around it. There are no lots, very limited on street parking. Essentially you have two options to get there: Transit, or park at a parking facility away from the field and be bused in. Now, my first thought was how could this possibly work well? But after going to see a game - it worked amazingly well. Going to the game with a bunch of the local planners, I learned a lot about how well that place worked!

The Rogers Centre in Toronto has very little on site parking and regularly handles 50,000 plus crowds. Many people get there by transit or park in parking lots in the downtown core.

An urban stadium is what I wish for Halifax - one that can also be used by the universities, instead of one in Shannon Park. One in the 25,000 seat vicinity. This can be done - Hamilton is current building an urban stadium that can even be temporarily expanded for the Grey Cup.

[isaidso]

A downtown stadium is preferable, but there would be congestion problems. Skydome and the ACC work in downtown Toronto because that city has a subway system and GO Train connections at Union Station. Halifax relying on bus service to a stadium on the peninsula is going to be problematic no matter how much we want a stadium there. Halifax is screaming out for a LRT loop with bus routes feeding it. The current system is ridiculous.

Perhaps a peninsula area stadium would be the impetus for Halifax to start serious discussion about underground LRT. Putting it above ground makes no sense at all as Halifax needs every bit of surface road it can get.

[ILoveHalifax]

I used to live on the north Common and was always amazed at how quickly the traffic after a concert was all cleared up. If a stadium were downtown people could stay for refreshments in the area if they wanted to avoid the rush.
I also think a LRT, street car, could work if we turned some streets into one way, providing 3 lanes in one direction with the right lane for the tracks.

[halifaxboyns]

Keep in mind when we (all of us) talk about traffic congestion, we are really talking about our perceptions of it. We will have a tendency to think about the worst times of traffic and consider that the norm. I'd want to see a traffic study before considering a peninsula based stadium.

[wespidel]

But not a penny for a stadium! I would suggest that HRM has many problems that has to be dealt with that is driving people out of HRM that needs to addressed, which is why the downtown is what it is today. We have the highest property and commercial taxes in Canada coupled with the highest provincial taxes, and the highest food and gas prices. A city that you soon will not be able to afford to turn your water on or lights. How can this keep people living here and attract business. Plus the highest crime, a capital city that is unsafe and full of criminal graffiti and drug panhandlers. With many swarmings and major gun and knife crime happening every day. And a lot of crime not being reported. And you want to spend 50 million of tax payers money on a very criminal and undesirable city to live in, for downtown Halifax, where people are too scared to go! I you suggest the city has a lot to improve on before doing anything to downtown. I suggest then a major CFL model stadium for downtown Halifax at the Cogswell interchange would definitely bring in a lot of business and attract larger commerical development for downtown, and keep more people here and attract more people to Halifax. But the height restrictions got to go! HRM and the province had no problem putting in 112 million into a unpopular convention centre compared to a major stadium for Halifax. So HRM and province can do the same for a major CFL model stadium for Halifax. And if HRM can't build a major CFL model stadium, they shouldn't build a stadium period!

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by wespidel

And you want to spend 50 million of tax payers money on a very criminal and undesirable city to live in, for downtown Halifax, where people are too scared to go! I you suggest the city has a lot to improve on before doing anything to downtown. I suggest then a major CFL model stadium for downtown Halifax at the Cogswell interchange would definitely bring in a lot of business and attract larger commerical development for downtown, and keep more people here and attract more people to Halifax. But the height restrictions got to go! HRM and the province had no problem putting in 112 million into a unpopular convention centre compared to a major stadium for Halifax. So HRM and province can do the same for a major CFL model stadium for Halifax. And if HRM can't build a major CFL model stadium, they shouldn't build a stadium period!

Where do I start? There are just so many juicy targets here. So I'll do it in point form:

• You say it's criminal to spend $50 million on urban realm improvements - yet it's okay for a stadium? You realize that very sentence kills your arguement right there.
• Height restrictions aren't changing - they are pretty set and council (given their decision on Skye) seems uninterested in having this discussion. If you put a stadium at Cogswell - there is no reason it shouldn't fit from a height perspective (I'm not aware of many 20+ storey stadiums).
• Just because Councillor Mason asked for the money - doesn't mean council will give it to him (unless they voted to do it, then strike this).

If you are going to focus on encouraging a stadium - you can't use a defeatist and have it suddenly prove your argument - that's bs. Plus there are a series of previous commitments to improve downtown sidewalks/urban realm that haven't happened and frankly, they came first. There is only so much money to go around...

[Drybrain]

As well, the notion that a stadium would "definitely bring in a lot of business and attract larger commerical development" is impossible to prove—I've been to lots of inner-city stadiums surrounded by sketchy neighbourhoods. A stadium, by itself, will not suddenly revitalize downtown. (And would be a waste of the Cogswell lands, IMO).

I'd also point out that Halifax's "crime-severity index" as measured by police forces and Statistics Canada, is definitely above the national average, but below many cities, including Vancouver, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, St. John's, and Edmonton, as well as a host of smaller cities (including, weirdly, Kelowna). So Halifax doesn't have "the highest crime", nor is it objectively, generally unsafe.

I would like to see a peer-reviewed study on the effect of stadiums on knife fights, however.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

As well, the notion that a stadium would "definitely bring in a lot of business and attract larger commerical development" is impossible to prove—I've been to lots of inner-city stadiums surrounded by sketchy neighbourhoods. A stadium, by itself, will not suddenly revitalize downtown. (And would be a waste of the Cogswell lands, IMO).

I agree it would be a waste of the Cogswell lands.

It is impossible to prove or disprove, but given the fact that a stadium is non-existant it is fair to say that there will be economic impact.

Even treated as a public good, it by nature would spur transactions (i.e. those individuals who rent the field space for various purposes would likely buy from stores in the immediate area on some level.

For this reason, somewhere in the West End seems attractive given the scattered concentrations of retail. I think finding the right spot is vital to the success or failure. Immediate transit links and parking (ugh, I have to say it) will be big.

I think Bayers Lake and area are too far.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I agree it would be a waste of the Cogswell lands.

It is impossible to prove or disprove, but given the fact that a stadium is non-existant it is fair to say that there will be economic impact.

Even treated as a public good, it by nature would spur transactions (i.e. those individuals who rent the field space for various purposes would likely buy from stores in the immediate area on some level.

For this reason, somewhere in the West End seems attractive given the scattered concentrations of retail. I think finding the right spot is vital to the success or failure. Immediate transit links and parking (ugh, I have to say it) will be big.

I think Bayers Lake and area are too far.

Agreed - this stuff is so difficult to prove statistically, so of course if falls to perception which is always subjective.

What I was trying to illustrate when I posted this comment was that you could use the stadium as a catalyst for a new area (my preference has been Shannon Park). But you could also do something like this in the forum area (Fenwick's suggestion) and on the Dartmouth sites that had been suggested. I don't think you would need to really worry about this if a stadium went on the VG site once that hospital was decommissioned:

Now I know we all have different location preferences and I have said my preference is Shannon Park. With these ideas in mind - I ask you to vision something with me (which may also be workable to some degree at other sites).

Imagine a mixed use community of 8 to 12 storey buildings built next to the new stadium, along a 2 lane boulevarded street (tree lined), with a streetcar running along it that came from the Bridge Terminal. Along the water edge, a boardwalk with these mixed use buildings fronting to them, with cafes and restaurants with patios and condos above. A high speed ferry terminal in the cove (near the current smoke stacks) with a pocket park and plaza leading to the Boulevard and a street crossing to the Stadium. The stadium has limited parking (maybe 1 or 2 parkades which are built fronting to this boulevard - but have active uses on the ground floor (stores or restaurants). The back of house functions are tucked away behind the stadium, concealed by some mixed use buildings and the bus transit facility bringing people in is located where the commercial is on Wyse Road - with a sky walk bridge over the railway tracks.

I'm no artist (I can't draw to save my life) - but this sounds pretty cool.