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  #141  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 2:42 PM
Yofie Yofie is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
/\ It doesn't change the point you're making, but just to be accurate, Montreal-Boston is 5 hours. I do it often enough to know.
Depends on how fast one drives and/or how long one stops on the highway each time. The way my family and I drive, at 100-120 km/h, it takes 6 hours or maybe just a drop less (not counting traffic jams or stopping at the border).
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  #142  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 2:45 PM
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These are good points, although I do find that Ottawa has slowly but surely drifted towards Toronto's orbit, and away from its traditional alignment with Montreal.
I guess, then, that in the era when Montreal was larger than Toronto (up until the 1970s or so), a division of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor into two separate and discrete megalopolises (Toronto/southern Ontario and Ottawa/Montreal/Quebec City) would have made more complete sense than nowadays?
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  #143  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Yofie View Post
Depends on how fast one drives and/or how long one stops on the highway each time. The way my family and I drive, at 100-120 km/h, it takes 6 hours or maybe just a drop less (not counting traffic jams or stopping at the border).
It's just less than 500 km from downtown to downtown though. With minimal stops and a bit of luck at the border you should be able to do it in about 5 hours.
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  #144  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:11 PM
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Drawing a blank here. I just gauge it by the fact that you no longer here about people driving to Montreal for dinner, as you did when I moved to Ottawa in the early '80s.
Really? It seems to me that Montreal has evolved more into "the big city of Quebec/French Canada" as opposed to "the/a big Canadian city" in recent decades. As a result most people in Ottawa are less likely to have family or connections in Montreal, or to move there for various reasons, than they used to.

And that similar links to Toronto have ramped up.

Also the provinces (all of them, not just ON and QC) have tended to grow more powerful over time and have become increasingly self-contained entities when it comes to how their residents live their lives. This also pushes Ottawa more into Toronto's orbit.
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  #145  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Yofie View Post
I guess, then, that in the era when Montreal was larger than Toronto (up until the 1970s or so), a division of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor into two separate and discrete megalopolises (Toronto/southern Ontario and Ottawa/Montreal/Quebec City) would have made more complete sense than nowadays?
Yes and no.

What would make more sense is a shaded area over Ottawa where it's partly in Montreal's colour, and partly in Toronto's colour.

But once you get past the outskirts of Ottawa going east (or even cross the river going north into Gatineau), Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe don't exert that much influence anymore.

Montreal-Quebec City as part of a single megalopolis with Toronto as its heart doesn't make much sense.
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  #146  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Montreal-Quebec City as part of a single megalopolis with Toronto as its heart doesn't make much sense.
I was never talking about a single megalopolis, with Toronto/the Golden Horseshoe as its heart, encompassing Montreal/Quebec City. (Though many geographers have talked about it as such.) I like to think of two megalopolises, one with Toronto as its heart and one with Montreal as its heart, that happen to be next to each other. Perhaps Kingston is the traditional boundary between those two, and that boundary has been expanded in recent decades to include Ottawa also (as per the posters here saying that Ottawa has gravitated away from Montreal and towards Toronto).
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  #147  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Yofie View Post
I was never talking about a single megalopolis, with Toronto/the Golden Horseshoe as its heart, encompassing Montreal/Quebec City. (Though many geographers have talked about it as such.) I like to think of two megalopolises, one with Toronto as its heart and one with Montreal as its heart, that happen to be next to each other. Perhaps Kingston is the traditional boundary between those two, and that boundary has been expanded in recent decades to include Ottawa also (as per the posters here saying that Ottawa has gravitated away from Montreal and towards Toronto).
This is basically what has been described as the Quebec-Windsor Corridor since the 1970s IIRC.
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  #148  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 3:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Really? It seems to me that Montreal has evolved more into "the big city of Quebec/French Canada" as opposed to "the/a big Canadian city" in recent decades. As a result most people in Ottawa are less likely to have family or connections in Montreal, or to move there for various reasons, than they used to.

And that similar links to Toronto have ramped up.

Also the provinces (all of them, not just ON and QC) have tended to grow more powerful over time and have become increasingly self-contained entities when it comes to how their residents live their lives. This also pushes Ottawa more into Toronto's orbit.
I can't say I've ever heard anyone here comment on that, or indicate that it makes a difference to their choice of places to visit. You still get random positive observations about good places to visit in Montreal (ie the tourist perspective). The decline of family connections is likely a factor, however.
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  #149  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Yofie View Post
Depends on how fast one drives and/or how long one stops on the highway each time. The way my family and I drive, at 100-120 km/h, it takes 6 hours or maybe just a drop less (not counting traffic jams or stopping at the border).
Have you done it recently though? They just completed Freeway 35 from St-Jean-sur-Richelieu all the way to ... I don't recall exactly where (Pike River?) but it's getting really close to junction with the divided highway 133 in Philipsburg.

That's got to shave quite a bit of time from the trip.

Also, the wait at customs really matters - I recall the 133/I-89 customs are pretty bad. To go to Boston from the Townships, I always leave the freeway one exit before the border, and go through the old customs in the villages of Stanstead and Derby Line. It's MUCH faster. The big customs on the interstate (A-55/I-91) are horrible; long wait times, unfriendly agents.
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  #150  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2017, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Have you done it recently though? They just completed Freeway 35 from St-Jean-sur-Richelieu all the way to ... I don't recall exactly where (Pike River?) but it's getting really close to junction with the divided highway 133 in Philipsburg.

That's got to shave quite a bit of time from the trip.
I have to admit that I haven't gone to Boston in the past year and a half or so, but when I last passed through the border area along I-89/QC-133 this past January, as well as in the past year or two, A-35 had already been extended up to a certain point around Pike River. There was thus only a bit of the 3-lane QC-133 to go through (less than before).
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  #151  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 7:31 PM
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I've been thinking about this thread again so here goes...
Even though settlement patterns in North America have for most of colonial history followed an east-west pattern, there are a few regions that are an exception to this rule. It seems that the cross-border regions identified in this thread are primarily on waterways that traverse the border, as opposed to waterways forming part of the border. These are the areas that arguably seem to have a higher degree of international integration, it's not only geography that plays a role in the character of these regions but historical development as well. One example is the Vancouver-Seattle Corridor (Salish Sea) which is also part of a common ecoregion, Cascadia and former historic territory, Oregon Country. Another example is the Winnipeg-Fargo Corridor (Red River) which share the Lake Agassiz Plain ecoregion and historic territory, the Red River Colony. The Saint John River basin (Acadia) and Lake Champlain basin and environs (Montreal-Plattsburgh) are other such examples of these transboundary waterways.

Other cross-border regions can also include trans-border urban areas, Detroit-Windsor (ON/MI), Niagara Falls (ON/NY), Sault Ste. Marie (ON/MI), Sarnia-Port Huron (ON/MI) or other such smaller urban areas. These areas are bound to have cross-border interaction with higher degrees of integration than those formerly mentioned, but this interaction is more exclusive and less far reaching than the expansive boundaries of a watershed.

I'm not arguing that these areas have more in common with their American counterparts than they do with fellow Canadians, but in some instances that balance may be about equal. Regardless, these cross-border regions do stand out as having more day-to-day interaction than would many border areas, however this has much to do with population distribution and historical development of the area.
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  #152  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2017, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by balletomane View Post
Other cross-border regions can also include trans-border urban areas, Detroit-Windsor (ON/MI), Niagara Falls (ON/NY), Sault Ste. Marie (ON/MI), Sarnia-Port Huron (ON/MI) or other such smaller urban areas. These areas are bound to have cross-border interaction with higher degrees of integration than those formerly mentioned, but this interaction is more exclusive and less far reaching than the expansive boundaries of a watershed.

I'm not arguing that these areas have more in common with their American counterparts than they do with fellow Canadians, but in some instances that balance may be about equal.
For Niagara Falls, the answer is unequivocally, 100% no. The American and Canadian sides are as different as night and day, and there is virtually no interaction between them outside of American tourists wanting to come to the Canadian side for the better views (tourists to the Canadian side generally don't cross over to the American side).

Metro Buffalo is the only real draw in the area, not Niagara Falls, but Fort Erie, across the river, is tiny. I don't know how to quantify the numbers, but I'd guess that traffic originating in St. Catharines going to Toronto and environs outnumbers that crossing the border into Buffalo by twenty, thirty or forty times. Or more.
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  #153  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 5:18 AM
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[QUOTE=balletomane;7928294]I've been thinking about this thread again so here goes...
Even though settlement patterns in North America have for most of colonial history followed an east-west pattern, there are a few regions that are an exception to this rule. It seems that the cross-border regions identified in this thread are primarily on waterways that traverse the border, as opposed to waterways forming part of the border. These are the areas that arguably seem to have a higher degree of international integration, it's not only geography that plays a role in the character of these regions but historical development as well. One example is the Vancouver-Seattle Corridor (Salish Sea) which is also part of a common ecoregion, Cascadia and former historic territory, Oregon Country. ......
QUOTE]

From a historical perspective until BC joined Canada, Washington State and BC were part of the same colony. There is a bit of a share history.

Another interesting factor in addition to waterways is railways. The Soo Line links Moose Jaw in Saskatchewan to Chicago and Minneapolis. If the stories are to be believed (and I am not certain there is evidence to support the stores), Al Capone smuggled liquor from Canada down into the US on that Line.

Getting back to Cascadia.....

- Vancouver - Seattle - Portland are connected by the Cascadia passenger railway network.

- For SeaTac (Seattle's international airport) - The airports number one international destination is Vancouver. Nearly twice the number of passengers as Seoul South Korea. That says a lot when Seattle is Delta airlines primary pacific gateway airport.
- For Portland International, its number one international destination is Vancouver.

Strong transportation ties in addition to the strong business ties in the region.
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  #154  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2017, 5:35 PM
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New England and the Maritimes is also more of a historical than present-day phenomenon. There isn't much right around the border; the areas where most people live in both of those regions are several hours apart. It's not particularly easy to move back and forth anymore. I'm guessing you'd find more people in the Maritimes who've been to Toronto, Calgary, or maybe Vancouver than have been to Boston, even though Boston is the closest of those cities.

A lot of tourists in the Maritimes are Americans but, well, there are a lot of Americans. I'm not sure the Maritimes are an unusually popular destination for them.
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In much of Canada, if you went back in time by 50 or 100 years you might have found that the share of people who had lived on both sides of the border, or had family ties on both sides, was higher. I think the two countries have been diverging for a while. Some of this is undoubtedly due to the border itself but I think two other factors might be globalization and Canada's evolution into a bigger and wealthier country with better internal travel options and communications, a more complex economy, more developed institutions (which can run things differently, e.g. by providing healthcare and other benefits), bigger cities, etc.
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Originally Posted by Sarah89 View Post
As others have said the cross border "integration" is not that common in the day in age. Maybe 100 years ago but the ties, family ties especially have really diminished. I believe Canadians and Americans have drifted apart more culturally than one would guess.
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
The topic of this thread actually raises additional questions, like how current border security issues, Trump era politics, international relations, globalization, etc., will affect the integrity of these regions, perhaps lessening their functionality and importance. Presumably cross border regions will be weakened.
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Originally Posted by big W View Post
Two things that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is that the cross border cultural integration is less so then previous generations are:

1. Significantly increased immigration in Canada with a corresponding shift in immigration patterns vs the US.

2. Significantly increased internal migration patterns in Canada. So for example 100 years ago migrants to Alberta were more likely to be from the US but now they are Canadians from other provinces.
Interesting that many here observe the decline in cross-border connections and decreasing numbers of people who have family ties across the two. That seems to be my impression too.

It relates to the often discussed question of whether the US and Canada are drifting closer or farther apart.

On the one hand, there's the rise of Canadian cities as being larger, more attractive destinations for immigrants than fifty or a hundred years back. There's the difficulty of crossing borders and maintaining large chain migrations of people who may have families split in between the US and Canada in the modern era. Unlike even as recently as when the Americans who wanted to avoid the draft went north during the Vietnam war about just a couple of generations ago, it is hard to become citizens of either country so easily in the 21st century, so people and their families may be more likely to just stick to one side of the border.

On the other hand, there's talk of becoming more alike through globalization of talent, NAFTA, brain-drain of Canadians to the US, many more US chains and companies in Canada in contrast to Canada's ability to produce "homegrown" counterparts. Even talk of the Canadian accent being more "Americanized" relates to the question of how alike the two countries are becoming.

So you have two conflicting narratives of either becoming more alike or more apart in the modern, globalized era.
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