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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2017, 7:55 PM
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With the Whitecaps providing a way better atmosphere that attracts younger fans is imo a big part of the reason for the Lions alarming attendance figures. Add to that more people from BC travel to Seattle to see the Blue Jays than to see a Lions home game. Then there's the Seahawks. The CFL is taking a back seat to too many other teams. If the Lions start to see crowds in the 15 000 range, imo the CFL is done. I pray the NFL will have interest in Canada, despite the minor stadium issues.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
With the Whitecaps providing a way better atmosphere that attracts younger fans is imo a big part of the reason for the Lions alarming attendance figures.
I don't think it's any coincidence that in the three markets they share the MLS has surpassed CFL numbers and the CFL numbers have dropped. Montreal is the only market where, under the shared CFL-MLS model, the CFL is maintaining steady attendance. I'm not sure what the impact of the CPL will be moving forward on both CFL and MLS figures. We'll see how the franchise locations shake out.

Whitecaps sold out last night for a midweek game, as well.

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Originally Posted by DrJoe
My point simply was that any franchise in the league, whether it be the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, anyone would struggle to draw decent crowds if their team went on a 20 year streak out of the playoffs or even contending for a playoff spot.
Hell, the Yankees have been having issues with attendance ever since they opened New Yankee Stadium, and they're not far removed from dominating the league for years. Went to a game there last year against the Jays and half the stadium was empty.

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Originally Posted by khabibulin
Official attendance is 11,219 at BMO field.
11K is Toronto Rock @ ACC territory.

It's interesting how Toronto has been shaking out this year:

35K+: Jays
25K-to-30K: TFC
18K-to-21K: Raptors, Leafs
10K-15K?: Argos
7K-10K: Rock
5K-7K: Wolfpack

Eventually the Jays attendance will drop down to high 20s/low 30s like they were previously but there's room for growth at the bottom for Argos, Rock, and Wolfpack. It's likely that the Wolfpack will be getting larger crowds at Lamport than Argos at TFC soon, and if the Wolfpack win their league this year like they're looking destined to they'll be in 2nd division Rugby next year.

Last edited by JHikka; Jul 6, 2017 at 10:27 PM.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2017, 11:14 PM
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For the most part, they won't be happy or sad... they just won't care. At least that's the feeling in Toronto... and from what I've heard Vancouver may be in a similar situation.

The biggest problems is the fan base is getting older faster than the CFL can replace them with younger fans.
The CFL is really struggling with the younger audience and appealing to the increasingly diverse demographic groups in Canada. Gridiron football is largely a North American phenomenon.

MLS on the other hand, is doing quite well on that front. Perhaps that's just the worldwide appeal of soccer finally arriving here as Canada's demographics change.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2017, 11:58 PM
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Demographics play a big role in the shifts against the CFL. The major cities with more diverse populations are more into soccer and for local youth, the CFL did a disservice with its old silly blackout rules which kept a whole generation of youth from being able to watch local CFL games on TV. In the major markers like BC and Toronto the stadiums were never going to be full aside from playoff games and thus you would go a whole season with very little TV presence from local CFL teams.

MLS meanwhile has provided a venue where folks can experience a realistic soccer experience with the horns, flags, beer, and chants. Evreyone knows MLS is second tier soccer but it's the closest you'll get to the real deal and they still being over quality (maybe past thier prime) players. They also do a good job running promotional tours that bring over top flight teams for North American tours and exhibition games.

The CFL just needs to accept it's reality of a gate and TV league and work to maximize both. A team in KW playing in a modest but nice 17k stadium would do well and would add more content to boost TV numbers for example. Forget about dog town Toronto, which can't be saved. CFL should be shoring up it's business model so that smaller markets can join the league. Big cities in Vaughn, Mississauga, etc that would benefit in having a Pro team with the cities name on it as means to step out of Toronto's shadows. There is enough of a corporate base in every GTA city where they could easily sustain themselves with a modest but nice facility.

CFL brass let's me down, example, why didn't the hold TSN to the fire to have a back to back games on Canada day? The whole sports landscape to yourself on Canada's 150th, no better way to boost and promote the game. The Sask Wpg game would of sold out on a random Tuesday night in September. Such low hanging fruit that the league and TSN grabbed at versus going hard for a truly once in a generation type event.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 2:31 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
In the major markers like BC and Toronto the stadiums were never going to be full aside from playoff games and thus you would go a whole season with very little TV presence from local CFL teams.
Even then, playoff games aren't guaranteed sellouts or gate drivers.

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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
MLS meanwhile has provided a venue where folks can experience a realistic soccer experience with the horns, flags, beer, and chants. Evreyone knows MLS is second tier soccer but it's the closest you'll get to the real deal and they still being over quality (maybe past thier prime) players. They also do a good job running promotional tours that bring over top flight teams for North American tours and exhibition games.
This is pretty rapidly changing in the MLS, though. It's quickly getting better in quality and getting modestly better players. Giovinco wasn't past his prime when he joined and he still isn't anywhere near ancient. Neither are any of the American NT players, or even some of the more talented imports (Schweinsteiger, etc.).

MLS is going to continue playing second-fiddle to the Mexican league for the forseeable future (in terms of CONCACAF leagues) but the time will come when an MLS teams qualifies for the Club World Cup or compete more strongly internationally. It's a slow progression and changes like that usually take a generation or two.

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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
The CFL just needs to accept it's reality of a gate and TV league and work to maximize both. A team in KW playing in a modest but nice 17k stadium would do well and would add more content to boost TV numbers for example. Forget about dog town Toronto, which can't be saved. CFL should be shoring up it's business model so that smaller markets can join the league. Big cities in Vaughn, Mississauga, etc that would benefit in having a Pro team with the cities name on it as means to step out of Toronto's shadows. There is enough of a corporate base in every GTA city where they could easily sustain themselves with a modest but nice facility.
The most important thing to remember about this is that the CPL is likely going to beat the CFL in getting to markets like London, KW, Kingston...they've already beaten the CFL to Halifax and they've only confirmed three teams thus far. Because we've seen what's happened in the MLS/CFL shared markets i'm interested if something similar happens in the CPL/CFL markets as well. At least in terms of gate time will tell. Edmonton FC are on pace for a record year for their gate figures as the Eskimos continue to decline with theirs.

-------

Attendance for Week 3 in Montreal for Alouettes tonight was 18,728. First time an attendance for an Als game has dropped below 19K since 1999. It's not the end of the world but this is a team that has consistently been 20K+ for every game for nearly 20 years.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Demographics play a big role in the shifts against the CFL. The major cities with more diverse populations are more into soccer and for local youth, the CFL did a disservice with its old silly blackout rules which kept a whole generation of youth from being able to watch local CFL games on TV. In the major markers like BC and Toronto the stadiums were never going to be full aside from playoff games and thus you would go a whole season with very little TV presence from local CFL teams.

.
The blackout issue was resolved around 20 years ago I think. But its legacy lives on today because the dads of the kids today are the CFL's lost generation - they're not passing on an interest in the game to their kids because they never got hooked.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 12:15 PM
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The blackout issue was resolved around 20 years ago I think. But its legacy lives on today because the dads of the kids today are the CFL's lost generation - they're not passing on an interest in the game to their kids because they never got hooked.
Must be a language thing
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 12:32 PM
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Must be a language thing
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Attendance for Week 3 in Montreal for Alouettes tonight was 18,728.
I guess Montrealers (and Vancouverites) are wanna-Americans. At least that's what I keep hearing is the reason for low attendance (once the stadium can no longer be used as an excuse).

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
First time an attendance for an Als game has dropped below 19K since 1999. It's not the end of the world but this is a team that has consistently been 20K+ for every game for nearly 20 years.
Didn't Montreal get 15k for a playoff game only a few years ago?
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 2:12 PM
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Bandage is back!
Indeed - first post on the forums and it's a backhand slap in the face. It sound like it's going to be a quick banning for Mr. Incognito.......
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 2:27 PM
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Will the citizens of those cities be happy if the CFL dies? Will they care?

Except for a very small number of people the answer is NO. At least in Toronto. You never see anybody walking around town in an Argo's hat, or shirt. It's all Baseball, Hockey, NBA, and MLS supporters you see walking around town.

T.O teams attendance rankings for their last seasons.
Blue Jays #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 3,392,099
Maple Leafs #5 out of 30 - Total for regular season 809,519
Raptors #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 813,050
TFC #4 out of 22 - Total for regular season 451,917
Argos #8 out of 9 - Total for regular season 381,181

It should be noted that the attendance records for the Argo's show that approx 2 3rds of the tickets sold were to visiting fans not supporting the home team.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I guess Montrealers (and Vancouverites) are wanna-Americans. At least that's what I keep hearing is the reason for low attendance (once the stadium can no longer be used as an excuse).
LOL, I always love it when that's what people say about Toronto for the lack of CFL interest. It has nothing to do with it. It's a 9 team league, competing in a place with more exciting options with much larger and more competitive leagues. If the Argo's moved to London it would probably be a huge success but the CFL isn't ready to admit defeat in it's largest market.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 3:13 PM
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It should be noted that the attendance records for the Argo's show that approx 2 3rds of the tickets sold were to visiting fans not supporting the home team.
How do you know this unless you ask people when buying which team they are supporting? I've bought hundreds of sporting event tickets in my life, and I've never once been asked this kind of question.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 3:51 PM
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I guess Montrealers (and Vancouverites) are wanna-Americans. At least that's what I keep hearing is the reason for low attendance (once the stadium can no longer be used as an excuse).
There is more to it than that. Toronto has a demonstrated low level of interest for made in Canada stuff and it's not just about the CFL. They started moving the Juno Awards around the country (when they were previously always in Toronto) due to waning interest in them in the GTA. There is a reason why they never hold the Brier in Toronto and that the CHL hesitated a lot before finally putting the Memorial Cup in the GTA (Mississauga). Even then it was a big challenge selling tickets and drumming up interest. The same goes for the Vanier Cup university football championship.

Montreal may not be super-hot for the Alouettes and the CFL right now, but there is generally a high level of interest for Québécois-specific stuff in the city and metro area. I wouldn't call them a bunch of American wannabes just because they're not interested in Rita MacNeil, Stompin Tom and Men with Brooms.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 4:05 PM
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How do you know this unless you ask people when buying which team they are supporting? I've bought hundreds of sporting event tickets in my life, and I've never once been asked this kind of question.

Sorry the sites info was a little confusing I got the numbers from. In fact it makes the numbers even sadder for the Argos. https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-...tendance/2016/


I should have just said :

Argos #8 out of 9 - Total for regular season 147,423
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 4:22 PM
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There is more to it than that. Toronto has a demonstrated low level of interest for made in Canada stuff and it's not just about the CFL.

What a load of crap. They started rotating the Juno's out of demand from other parts of the country and also increase overall viewership. The Juno's TV ranking were slipping nation wide. Toronto has huge support for it's team and is proud of those franchises historic Canadian roots. Not liking the CFL does not mean we don't support Canadian stuff.

FYI the very first Brier was held in Toronto. While it hasn't been back in many years it also hasn't returned to Montreal in 40 years now. the Junos starting rotating out of Toronto since 1991 and have been back to the big smoke 5 times since then. Each year we play host to Canada's largest pro tennis event where the fan base has grown along with Canadian talent.


What a fucking load of crap that comment was.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 7:36 PM
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What a load of crap. They started rotating the Juno's out of demand from other parts of the country and also increase overall viewership. The Juno's TV ranking were slipping nation wide. Toronto has huge support for it's team and is proud of those franchises historic Canadian roots. Not liking the CFL does not mean we don't support Canadian stuff.

FYI the very first Brier was held in Toronto. While it hasn't been back in many years it also hasn't returned to Montreal in 40 years now. the Junos starting rotating out of Toronto since 1991 and have been back to the big smoke 5 times since then. Each year we play host to Canada's largest pro tennis event where the fan base has grown along with Canadian talent.


What a fucking load of crap that comment was.
No one seriously claims that Montreal is the "centre" of most anything pan-Canadian these days anyway.

It is what it is.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Demographics play a big role in the shifts against the CFL. The major cities with more diverse populations are more into soccer and for local youth, the CFL did a disservice with its old silly blackout rules which kept a whole generation of youth from being able to watch local CFL games on TV. In the major markers like BC and Toronto the stadiums were never going to be full aside from playoff games and thus you would go a whole season with very little TV presence from local CFL teams.

MLS meanwhile has provided a venue where folks can experience a realistic soccer experience with the horns, flags, beer, and chants. Evreyone knows MLS is second tier soccer but it's the closest you'll get to the real deal and they still being over quality (maybe past thier prime) players. They also do a good job running promotional tours that bring over top flight teams for North American tours and exhibition games.

The CFL just needs to accept it's reality of a gate and TV league and work to maximize both. A team in KW playing in a modest but nice 17k stadium would do well and would add more content to boost TV numbers for example. Forget about dog town Toronto, which can't be saved. CFL should be shoring up it's business model so that smaller markets can join the league. Big cities in Vaughn, Mississauga, etc that would benefit in having a Pro team with the cities name on it as means to step out of Toronto's shadows. There is enough of a corporate base in every GTA city where they could easily sustain themselves with a modest but nice facility.

CFL brass let's me down, example, why didn't the hold TSN to the fire to have a back to back games on Canada day? The whole sports landscape to yourself on Canada's 150th, no better way to boost and promote the game. The Sask Wpg game would of sold out on a random Tuesday night in September. Such low hanging fruit that the league and TSN grabbed at versus going hard for a truly once in a generation type event.
Not even the remotest chance of either city springing for such a stadium.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 7:52 PM
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It should be noted that the attendance records for the Argo's show that approx 2 3rds of the tickets sold were to visiting fans not supporting the home team.
I'm calling bullshit on this
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2017, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There is more to it than that. Toronto has a demonstrated low level of interest for made in Canada stuff and it's not just about the CFL. They started moving the Juno Awards around the country (when they were previously always in Toronto) due to waning interest in them in the GTA. There is a reason why they never hold the Brier in Toronto and that the CHL hesitated a lot before finally putting the Memorial Cup in the GTA (Mississauga). Even then it was a big challenge selling tickets and drumming up interest. The same goes for the Vanier Cup university football championship.
I'm going to have to disagree.

Toronto simply has a lot more entertainment options, so in order to compete with those options - you better have something that demands their attention. It has nothing to do with them resisting the product because it's Canadian - it's because the product is sub-par to them. It would be like accusing all of Canada for not buying Blackberry's any more because it's Canadian - when it's simply because the product is 3rd or 4th rate behind the competition.

To most in Toronto, hockey is a Canadian product (and we know hockey is only a blip on the radar in the US) - yet the Leafs have the most dedicated fan support in the whole NHL.

Toronto sold out all 3 shows for the Tragically Hip final tour last year. They're pretty damn Canadian.

It's all about the product - not where the product came from.

That's why we're seeing the same thing in the other bigger Canadian markets. BC and Montreal aren't far off from Toronto. Not a coincidence that those 3 markets represent the top 3 for entertainment options in Canada.
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