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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 1:23 PM
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I'm going to have to disagree.

Toronto simply has a lot more entertainment options, so in order to compete with those options - you better have something that demands their attention. It has nothing to do with them resisting the product because it's Canadian - it's because the product is sub-par to them. It would be like accusing all of Canada for not buying Blackberry's any more because it's Canadian - when it's simply because the product is 3rd or 4th rate behind the competition.

To most in Toronto, hockey is a Canadian product (and we know hockey is only a blip on the radar in the US) - yet the Leafs have the most dedicated fan support in the whole NHL.

Toronto sold out all 3 shows for the Tragically Hip final tour last year. They're pretty damn Canadian.

It's all about the product - not where the product came from.

That's why we're seeing the same thing in the other bigger Canadian markets. BC and Montreal aren't far off from Toronto. Not a coincidence that those 3 markets represent the top 3 for entertainment options in Canada.
I think Toronto is very much concerned with doing things that are, for lack of a better word, "cool" or that fall within the current trend zeitgeist. Being at a Hip concert is cool. Getting a Snapchat picture at a Raptors game or Jays game is "cool". Not sure that same level of excitement exists for the Argos. Especially for younger people who won't pay for anything unless it means they can show it off online and gain some cred points.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 1:24 PM
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
I think Toronto is very much concerned with doing things that are, for lack of a better word, "cool" or that fall within the current trend zeitgeist. Being at a Hip concert is cool. Getting a Snapchat picture at a Raptors game or Jays game is "cool". Not sure that same level of excitement exists for the Argos. Especially for younger people who won't pay for anything unless it means they can show it off online and gain some cred points.
"Cool" as the new "world class"?
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
I think Toronto is very much concerned with doing things that are, for lack of a better word, "cool" or that fall within the current trend zeitgeist. Being at a Hip concert is cool. Getting a Snapchat picture at a Raptors game or Jays game is "cool". Not sure that same level of excitement exists for the Argos. Especially for younger people who won't pay for anything unless it means they can show it off online and gain some cred points.
What's your point? Everyone here is fully aware an entire generation spreading around the globe is obsessed with cool stuff and, in Toronto, that doesn't include the Argos. (and football in general)
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 8:25 PM
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With all this talk about Toronto wanting to be American can someone explain how a first-year team like the Wolfpack are pulling 6K-8K in a rugby league where all their opponents draw under 2K in the UK/France?

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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Didn't Montreal get 15k for a playoff game only a few years ago?
Perhaps! I only really track regular season numbers for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Montreal may not be super-hot for the Alouettes and the CFL right now, but there is generally a high level of interest for Québécois-specific stuff in the city and metro area. I wouldn't call them a bunch of American wannabes just because they're not interested in Rita MacNeil, Stompin Tom and Men with Brooms.
Montreal, and to a greater extent Quebec, is pretty lukewarm to most anything Canadian. When The Tragically Hip were playing their last ever show on CBC the reaction was hardly a blip on the radar in QC whereas it was given live viewings and showings across the RoC. This is why national championships are rarely ever held in QC (Brier, etc.) - people simply don't turn out. QC will support their own teams of course but when it comes to national-level events they're usually a peg below when it comes to gates and viewership.

------

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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 8:46 PM
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Toronto isn't a Canadian city. I think Toronto wants to be everything that London, NYC, and LA want to be versus just being Toronto.

The Wolfpack are fresh and tapping into Toronto's ethnic and foreign base. Lots of Europeans, Aussies, old Commonwealth folks who are big into Rugby. They also play an easy game that last a set amount of time. Toronto people are tight for time and football games drag on to damn long. Folks will only have that patience for baseball as it is a pleasing sport to watch live. Wolfpack now have always staeted momentum for more teams in North America. Once you get Montreal, Chicago, Boston, and NYC into the mix it becomes a more sexy product to market overall. The Wolfpack will be at BMO Field in about 3 years once they outgrow Lamport Stadium.

But back to Toronto. It is just a odd place in the context of Canada. Only in Toronto do more Pride flags hang than Canadian flags for the 150th. Toronto has always been a big booster of Pride but they then shy away from expressing Canadian Pride which IMO is the horse that drags the inclusion cart that allows things such as Pride to be so successful in the first place. These should be linked together but in many cases, as corporate Money has flown towards events such as Pride, they will boost their exposure to one more so than the other when both should, at minimum, get equal exposure.

I've been almost all over this country and Toronto just has its own thing going on. Montreal to me felt more classic Canadian even with the culture and language quirks present there. Vancouver is unapologetically Canadian also, let it think it's California, but is very much Canada in the presence of great scenery and weather that is all.

In a perfect world Toronto would be some special administrative zone so it could just be all different on its own and it would never be a topic for discussion on a national level.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2017, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
I think Toronto is very much concerned with doing things that are, for lack of a better word, "cool" or that fall within the current trend zeitgeist. Being at a Hip concert is cool. Getting a Snapchat picture at a Raptors game or Jays game is "cool". Not sure that same level of excitement exists for the Argos. Especially for younger people who won't pay for anything unless it means they can show it off online and gain some cred points.
Come on. Sure, there are a number of this generation that like the cool things... and like to take selfies doing cool things. But to chalk up the success of the Jays and Raptors to that is short-sighted and ridiculous. People aren't going to shell out big bucks to sit for a few hours to watch something they don't enjoy just because it's "cool" and they can take a selfie and show off to their friends on social media.

Something becomes cool because people like the product - it doesn't just become cool on its own. And by the same token, something becomes lame when people stop enjoying the product.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Toronto isn't a Canadian city. I think Toronto wants to be everything that London, NYC, and LA want to be versus just being Toronto.

The Wolfpack are fresh and tapping into Toronto's ethnic and foreign base. Lots of Europeans, Aussies, old Commonwealth folks who are big into Rugby. They also play an easy game that last a set amount of time. Toronto people are tight for time and football games drag on to damn long. Folks will only have that patience for baseball as it is a pleasing sport to watch live. Wolfpack now have always staeted momentum for more teams in North America. Once you get Montreal, Chicago, Boston, and NYC into the mix it becomes a more sexy product to market overall. The Wolfpack will be at BMO Field in about 3 years once they outgrow Lamport Stadium.

But back to Toronto. It is just a odd place in the context of Canada. Only in Toronto do more Pride flags hang than Canadian flags for the 150th. Toronto has always been a big booster of Pride but they then shy away from expressing Canadian Pride which IMO is the horse that drags the inclusion cart that allows things such as Pride to be so successful in the first place. These should be linked together but in many cases, as corporate Money has flown towards events such as Pride, they will boost their exposure to one more so than the other when both should, at minimum, get equal exposure.

I've been almost all over this country and Toronto just has its own thing going on. Montreal to me felt more classic Canadian even with the culture and language quirks present there. Vancouver is unapologetically Canadian also, let it think it's California, but is very much Canada in the presence of great scenery and weather that is all.

In a perfect world Toronto would be some special administrative zone so it could just be all different on its own and it would never be a topic for discussion on a national level.
It's rather superficial to gauge Canadian pride on the number of flags flown. You are right. Toronto is blessed with far two many unCanadian languages and cursed with no mountains and crappier weather. Striving to be better than its current self is a Canadian trait. Toronto just wants to be a better Toronto.

After all these years on SSP and hundreds of posts later, not one has been all that convincing. It's always far reaching examples and misconstrued data.



Or, Maybe the Canadian identity only exists in subtleties and quirks.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Toronto isn't a Canadian city. I think Toronto wants to be everything that London, NYC, and LA want to be versus just being Toronto.

But back to Toronto. It is just a odd place in the context of Canada. Only in Toronto do more Pride flags hang than Canadian flags for the 150th. Toronto has always been a big booster of Pride but they then shy away from expressing Canadian Pride which IMO is the horse that drags the inclusion cart that allows things such as Pride to be so successful in the first place. These should be linked together but in many cases, as corporate Money has flown towards events such as Pride, they will boost their exposure to one more so than the other when both should, at minimum, get equal exposure.

I've been almost all over this country and Toronto just has its own thing going on. Montreal to me felt more classic Canadian even with the culture and language quirks present there. Vancouver is unapologetically Canadian also, let it think it's California, but is very much Canada in the presence of great scenery and weather that is all.

In a perfect world Toronto would be some special administrative zone so it could just be all different on its own and it would never be a topic for discussion on a national level.
I'm going to have to disagree on a few points.

While Toronto doesn't feel like the 'classical version' of Canada, I still think that it certainly is a Canadian city - one that still reflects the multicultural diversity of this country, especially as it changes. I'd like to think that it represents the Canada of tomorrow - someplace with some ambition to be a player on the world stage. By not being stereotypically Canadian, it makes the city a far more interesting place.

It is like the difference between New York City and Topeka, Kansas - they're very different places - but they're both certainly part of the US.

I also think weather/scenery is a poor metric for Canadian-ness. They have snow in other countries, same with mountains, too.

If you're looking for a 'stereotypically Canadian' city, look no farther than Ottawa. You have a majority English population with a significant French minority, the weather is more in line with what people think of Canada and it is very orderly/bureaucratic in terms of layout and vibe. For all its pleasantness, it is indescribably bland though.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 2:46 PM
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Except for a very small number of people the answer is NO. At least in Toronto. You never see anybody walking around town in an Argo's hat, or shirt. It's all Baseball, Hockey, NBA, and MLS supporters you see walking around town.

T.O teams attendance rankings for their last seasons.
Blue Jays #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 3,392,099
Maple Leafs #5 out of 30 - Total for regular season 809,519
Raptors #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 813,050
TFC #4 out of 22 - Total for regular season 451,917
Argos #8 out of 9 - Total for regular season 381,181

It should be noted that the attendance records for the Argo's show that approx 2 3rds of the tickets sold were to visiting fans not supporting the home team.
The Argos # doesn't make sense. They only have 9 or so home games don't they? So how could they average 40,000 or so per home game to get such a high total #, when announced attendance would indicate something closer to 140,000 for the season?
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 4:01 PM
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The Argos # doesn't make sense. They only have 9 or so home games don't they? So how could they average 40,000 or so per home game to get such a high total #, when announced attendance would indicate something closer to 140,000 for the season?
Argos home attendance 147,423 in 2016 according to this

https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-...tendance/2016/
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 4:23 PM
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Montreal, and to a greater extent Quebec, is pretty lukewarm to most anything Canadian. When The Tragically Hip were playing their last ever show on CBC the reaction was hardly a blip on the radar in QC whereas it was given live viewings and showings across the RoC. This is why national championships are rarely ever held in QC (Brier, etc.) - people simply don't turn out. QC will support their own teams of course but when it comes to national-level events they're usually a peg below when it comes to gates and viewership.

-
Correct, but no one ever claims that Montreal and Quebec are the standard-bearer for things pan-Canadian. Montreal doesn't have Canada's national newspaper, the Canadian National Exhibition, the Canadian National Home Show, Canada's National Boat Show, Canada's sports network, Canada's "team" in various US sports leagues, blablabla...

Being an outlier in this way is part of Montreal and Quebec's ethos.

Toronto is totally different. It deliberately lays claim to the cross-Canada "beacon" or standard-bearer status but remains aloof to a lot of what most people consider iconic Canadiana.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 4:26 PM
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With all this talk about Toronto wanting to be American can someone explain how a first-year team like the Wolfpack are pulling 6K-8K in a rugby league where all their opponents draw under 2K in the UK/France?

.
I am not sure the popularity of the Wolfpack proves anything, as it's still something non-Canadian that as others pointed out, appeals to globalist aspirations in the city. (American stuff naturally draws most of the globalist fetish, but other stuff sometimes gets drawn in as well like the World Cup...)

I was in Toronto in my youth when they had Aussie rules football exhibition games in the city one time, and the AFL was considered a lot cool-er than the Argos and the CFL.

A meaningless match between the Geelong Cats and the Collingwood Magpies had more cred on the streets of the city than the Grey Cup that was played within a few weeks (IIRC) at SkyDome.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 4:39 PM
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I By not being stereotypically Canadian, it makes the city a far more interesting place.

.
To Canadians maybe.

Toronto is an interesting place to foreign visitors primarily because it is a big city with lots of "stuff".

Places that are popular with visitors in terms of human culture (as opposed to mountain scenery etc.) are those which tend to be as you say "stereotypically Canadian": Quebec, Newfoundland...

Having smidgens of imported Ghanaian, Tamil and Cambodian culture in a city is cool to a point, but it's never going to equate the real thing in the old countries. If it leads to unique mixes that are Ghanaian-Tamil-Cambodian, then you're talking. And this may indeed come to light in Toronto one day.

But if you just end up with a bunch of people of Ghanaian, Tamil, Cambodian, etc. origin eating hamburgers, watching Jimmy Kimmel and Grey's Anatomy and the Super Bowl, then that won't really be anything special.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 6:47 PM
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To Canadians maybe.

Toronto is an interesting place to foreign visitors primarily because it is a big city with lots of "stuff".

Places that are popular with visitors in terms of human culture (as opposed to mountain scenery etc.) are those which tend to be as you say "stereotypically Canadian": Quebec, Newfoundland...

Having smidgens of imported Ghanaian, Tamil and Cambodian culture in a city is cool to a point, but it's never going to equate the real thing in the old countries. If it leads to unique mixes that are Ghanaian-Tamil-Cambodian, then you're talking. And this may indeed come to light in Toronto one day.

But if you just end up with a bunch of people of Ghanaian, Tamil, Cambodian, etc. origin eating hamburgers, watching Jimmy Kimmel and Grey's Anatomy and the Super Bowl, then that won't really be anything special.
I'm scratching my head trying to imagine why anyone would think that it could? Or should? I've never heard it suggested before.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 7:38 PM
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Correct, but no one ever claims that Montreal and Quebec are the standard-bearer for things pan-Canadian. Montreal doesn't have Canada's national newspaper, the Canadian National Exhibition, the Canadian National Home Show, Canada's National Boat Show, Canada's sports network, Canada's "team" in various US sports leagues, blablabla...
Absolutely, but at the same time people automatically assume Montreal should be given international events (See: World Cup bid) simply because they're the second largest city and the standard-bearer for French Canada when, as history as shown, they don't show up in the numbers that other Canadian cities would put up for similar events. Montreal claims default #2 status in Canada for hosting international events when at times it has no business doing so.

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I am not sure the popularity of the Wolfpack proves anything, as it's still something non-Canadian that as others pointed out, appeals to globalist aspirations in the city. (American stuff naturally draws most of the globalist fetish, but other stuff sometimes gets drawn in as well like the World Cup...)
I suppose so, but American sports are very much in their own little bubble. The US dominates Basketball (which is steadily becoming more global), they claim ownership of Baseball (when they're not the best at it, and is slightly global), and they're the only country that plays American Football (which is slowly on the decline). Other sports like soccer and rugby are growing but still aren't anywhere near the larger sports, and further global sports like cricket are nowhere to be seen. I'm of the opinion that Toronto's aspirations are far more global than American, but generally skew towards American because of the MLB/NBA.

The popularity of the Wolfpack could probably be drawn down to some sort of weird Commonwealth ties and being more progressive/interactive/exciting than Canadian football/Argos, or other local sports. The team is dominating and should be promoted up, whether the majority of people going to Lamport for games are aware of that or not.

On that note, Wolfpack drew 7,139 yesterday, bringing their season average up to 6,581 with one regular season home game remaining.

----

FC Edmonton drew 3,438 on Friday against North Carolina FC, dropping their season average down slightly to 3,588.

REDBLACKS and Roughriders had what were essentially sellouts last night, wrapping up a pretty good Week 3 for CFL gates.

Blue Jays continue to draw into the 40Ks in early July despite the sluggish season. 41K, 37K, 46K hosting the Astros so far just before the All Star Break.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 10:18 PM
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On that note, Wolfpack drew 7,139 yesterday, bringing their season average up to 6,581 with one regular season home game remaining.
Do the Wolfpack really draw that many people? I haven't been following and have no idea what's going on - but I saw a couple shots of the game yesterday and the stands were pretty bare - no way there were 7,000 there. Didn't even look like 2,000. Was the picture probably taken very early in the game before everyone arrived, or are the numbers be fudged?
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  #57  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
With all this talk about Toronto wanting to be American can someone explain how a first-year team like the Wolfpack are pulling 6K-8K in a rugby league where all their opponents draw under 2K in the UK/France?



Perhaps! I only really track regular season numbers for the most part.



Montreal, and to a greater extent Quebec, is pretty lukewarm to most anything Canadian. When The Tragically Hip were playing their last ever show on CBC the reaction was hardly a blip on the radar in QC whereas it was given live viewings and showings across the RoC. This is why national championships are rarely ever held in QC (Brier, etc.) - people simply don't turn out. QC will support their own teams of course but when it comes to national-level events they're usually a peg below when it comes to gates and viewership.

------

30,165 out in Winnipeg last night for Stamps/Bombers. Good showing for the most part. I get the feeling that IGF's permanent capacity of 33K is a tad too large. Aesthetically it looks great.
Maybe....but two or three sellouts in a row and there will be complaints that it was built too small!
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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Correct, but no one ever claims that Montreal and Quebec are the standard-bearer for things pan-Canadian. Montreal doesn't have Canada's national newspaper, the Canadian National Exhibition, the Canadian National Home Show, Canada's National Boat Show, Canada's sports network, Canada's "team" in various US sports leagues, blablabla...

Being an outlier in this way is part of Montreal and Quebec's ethos.

Toronto is totally different. It deliberately lays claim to the cross-Canada "beacon" or standard-bearer status but remains aloof to a lot of what most people consider iconic Canadiana.
Ugh, Acajack. You're reading far too much into marketing which, as you say , wouldn't draw in the crowds in Montreal. A Southern Californian pitch for a resort condo in Humber Bay Shores is appealing in the middle of a Toronto winter however no purchaser is going to believe they can sit on a patio next to Marine Parade Drive with only a light sweater on in February. The lasting impression of "Canadian National" is of a big event/place. It has little to do with Toronto claiming to be Canada's centre of the universe.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 11:15 PM
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Do the Wolfpack really draw that many people? I haven't been following and have no idea what's going on - but I saw a couple shots of the game yesterday and the stands were pretty bare - no way there were 7,000 there. Didn't even look like 2,000. Was the picture probably taken very early in the game before everyone arrived, or are the numbers be fudged?
I've no actual idea. I'm just going off of what is officially reported. All of the other teams in their league attract between 1K-2K so I would be surprised if it was the league fudging numbers that much. Could be Wolfpack trying to get hype up or they're counting tickets sold instead of tickets entering the stadium.

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Maybe....but two or three sellouts in a row and there will be complaints that it was built too small!
Bombers haven't strung together consecutive regular season sellouts since IGF opened. They usually only get one or two through the course of a regular season. Averaged 30K the season IGF opened and averaged 25K in 2016.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2017, 11:22 PM
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I've no actual idea. I'm just going off of what is officially reported. All of the other teams in their league attract between 1K-2K so I would be surprised if it was the league fudging numbers that much. Could be Wolfpack trying to get hype up or they're counting tickets sold instead of tickets entering the stadium.


Bombers haven't strung together consecutive regular season sellouts since IGF opened. They usually only get one or two through the course of a regular season. Averaged 30K the season IGF opened and averaged 25K in 2016.
Three or four game winstreak will bring all the bandwagon jumpers out of the woodwork. Could start as early this fall with the back to back against Sask.
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