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  #1081  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 1:34 AM
cab cab is offline
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Someone is going to spend it, why not us?
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  #1082  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 2:12 AM
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Gawd, I can't believe people are so blah over this. How does one convey the insane price of this thing,

That is like 20 of these:


6 bn is so mind bogglingly over priced.

6 billion could-give or take: put MAX underground downtown (1.5bn) & put the Marquam under the river (2.5bn) & fund streetcar expansions all over the city (.4bn) & build a pro baseball stadium (.15bn) & replace the Sellwood bridge (.15bn) & widen 205 all the way through West Linn (.15bn) AND, finally, build a high capacity rail and auto bridge over the river (1.5bn).
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  #1083  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 2:33 AM
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$6 billion? Thats like one week in iraq...gee, thanks bush! ....
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  #1084  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 4:42 AM
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Quote:
6 billion could-give or take: put MAX underground downtown (1.5bn) & put the Marquam under the river (2.5bn) & fund streetcar expansions all over the city (.4bn) & build a pro baseball stadium (.15bn) & replace the Sellwood bridge (.15bn) & widen 205 all the way through West Linn (.15bn) AND, finally, build a high capacity rail and auto bridge over the river (1.5bn).
good points thats a lot of money. I can't imagine why it would cost that much
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  #1085  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 7:39 AM
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PSU Parking Seminar

I know this is posted over on the Portland Transport blog but i thought i'd post it here for all those who haven't seen it. Very interesting lecture by UCLA Prof. Donald Shoup on "The high cost of free parking." Some very good points, ideas and lessons that cities could implement--especially portland. All who can should view this. He did say that portland was ahead of the curve on many issues but still had problems, of course. One of them being the congestion, which he said to be terrible--even when compared to LA standards.

http://www.cts.pdx.edu/seminars.htm
Feb. 2
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  #1086  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderlandPark View Post
6 bn is so mind bogglingly over priced.

6 billion could-give or take: put MAX underground downtown (1.5bn) & put the Marquam under the river (2.5bn) & fund streetcar expansions all over the city (.4bn) & build a pro baseball stadium (.15bn) & replace the Sellwood bridge (.15bn) & widen 205 all the way through West Linn (.15bn) AND, finally, build a high capacity rail and auto bridge over the river (1.5bn).
Maybe they are high balling us so we feel good when it comes in for far less and "under budget".
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  #1087  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2007, 4:34 PM
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The region has been paying attention to Iraq. If the Feds are willing to get ripped off, lets get in the game and get as much cash as possible from them. Why should only Texas defense firms get the hand outs?
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  #1088  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 1:32 AM
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why not a simple bridge like this one is spain. i bet this one doesn't cost 6bil and ours isn't going to be 1,852 meters long!

6 total lanes a pedestrian walkway and tracks for the max
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  #1089  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 1:52 AM
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That is a very cool bridge!
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  #1090  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 1:53 AM
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That is nice! Any idea when this was built and for what cost?
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  #1091  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 1:56 AM
South-by-West South-by-West is offline
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^ Oooo...I like that bridge. Where in Spain is it exactly?
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  #1092  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 3:48 AM
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It might be too tall due to airport restrictions but could obviously be done. This is 80 meters tall(262 ft). as I said before its 1,852 meters long(6076ft.)The connections from the freeway too the bridge would probably be more difficult here but it would be a lot shorter so i would guess the cost could be about the same and possibily 1 billion max. its in vigo spain. would cost 400 million euros(525,000,000 U.S.) I translated this page from spanish so some of it doesn't make sense but here is the link
original: http://urbanscraper.blogspot.com/200...de-vigo-o.html
translated: http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools
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  #1093  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 4:03 AM
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Thats is an awesome bridge...nice find dougall. The design is amazing and for the cost its incredible. Europe knows how to do stuff, and do it right. Why the current CRC bridge estimates are so much i'll never know. I love how this spanish bridge puts the rail in the middle below and have a walkway/bikeway running down the middle as well. Someone should send this the CRC committee.
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  #1094  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 4:56 AM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I totally agree that anything over $2 billion is completely ridiculous, but remember that they want to build this with zero impacts on traffic during construction... which makes things much more complex for the approach ramps. That and increasing I-5 to 8-10 lanes throughout the entire I-5 Portland corridor adds a couple more billion.
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  #1095  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 7:26 AM
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8-10 lanes??? Whoa, then they should think about relocating the eastbank link ASAP. Maybe since they are working on 205 for light rail, etc. they should consider it as I-5 (with the 8-10 lanes) and rename I-5 downtown to I-205 and push it east and underground with fewer lanes than 8-10.
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  #1096  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 4:00 PM
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I-5 bridge estimate jumps to $6 billion
Even at low end of projected range, fixes likely to set a record
By Jim Redden
The Portland Tribune, Feb 16, 2007


The Columbia River Crossing project staff now estimates it could cost up to $6 billion to build a new Interstate 5 bridge across the Columbia River — including the cost of adding a mass transit line and upgrading freeway interchanges.

The new estimate was finalized early this year, project spokeswoman Danielle Cogan said.

“The range we’re talking about is between $2 billion and $6 billion, in 2006 dollars,” she said. “Because the work can’t actually begin until 2010 at the earliest, the final cost could be higher because of inflation.”

The bistate Columbia River Crossing Task Force that’s considering the project is scheduled to vote Feb. 27 whether to approve the proposed replacement bridge for detailed study.

The group will meet from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. in the Portland offices of the Oregon Department of Transportation, 123 N.W. Flanders St.

Although no official cost estimates previously have been released, some task force members have been using a $2 billion estimate when discussing the project in public.

The new $6 billion figure is sparking a debate over the project at Metro, the regional government charged with managing growth in most of Multnomah, Washington and Clackamas counties. The elected Metro Council must approve the project for it to go forward

“The new cost estimate is stunning,” said Metro Councilor Robert Liberty, who has been skeptical of the project. “That’s almost as much money as we’re projecting to have for all other regional transportation projects over the next 20 years.”

After Liberty revealed the new cost estimates at a Tuesday work session, the council agreed to hold a public hearing on the project as part of its next regular meeting, scheduled for 2 p.m. Thursday at the agency’s headquarters, 600 N.E. Grand Ave.

Liberty said the Columbia River Crossing Task Force needs to study other, lower-cost alternatives for reducing congestion on and around the I-5 bridge, where traffic consistently backs up during morning and evening rush hours.

“We need to have a full range of options before making a decision,” Liberty said.

The new estimate includes the cost of upgrading all freeway interchanges between North Columbia Boulevard in Portland and State Route 500 in Vancouver, Wash. Building only the replacement bridge and forgoing the interchange improvements is not an option, Cogan said. She pointed out that much of the current congestion is created by poorly spaced on- and offramps.

“It doesn’t make any sense to replace the bridge and not fix the interchanges,” she said.


Even at $2 billion, the project would be the most expensive transportation project in state history, requiring a special appropriation from Congress and motor vehicle tolls to help pay for it.

jimredden@portlandtribune.com


I think this is important to be made public...this project and task force was about replacing the bridge, the estimate went up because the project scope increased dramatically. It should be up to the people whether we look at replacing just the bridge or including changing the freeway system feeding onto it, which should than open up the discussion of a 'big tunnel' project or whatever they call it.
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Last edited by MarkDaMan; Feb 16, 2007 at 5:08 PM.
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  #1097  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 9:22 PM
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A Billion Here, a Billion There, Pretty Soon You Are Talking About Real Money

posted in Transportation, News commentary http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=61

Portland-Vancouver are debating the replacement of the Interstate 5 bridges crossing the Columbia River. Cost estimates are now as high as $6 billion.

“The bridge is probably a billion,” says the project manager. “The transit piece, similar.” Plus various extras; it all adds up.

The original Columbia River bridge was built in 1917, and a duplicate bridge was added in 1958.

Wait just a minute. The bridge has three lanes in each direction. Each of those lanes carry far more people than are likely to ride on any transit line. Yet the transit line is expected to cost as much as the bridge?

Not only that, but the planners appear to be dead-set against expanding roadway capacities. Planners prepared twelve preliminary alternatives, only two of which included expanded bridge capacities for cars.

Now they have narrowed the selection to three alternatives, none of which expand the roadways. Instead, the recommended alternatives are: do nothing, blow a huge amount of money on bus-rapid transit, and blow even more money on light rail.

Traffic records show that, shortly after the second bridge opened in 1958, about 30,000 vehicles a day crossed the twin bridges. By 1982, this had increased to 110,000 vehicles a day on six lanes.

In late 1982, the states opened a parallel I-205 bridge with eight lanes several miles up the Columbia River. This carried almost 40,000 vehicles a day in its first year, half of them drawn from the I-5 bridges. By 1994, the I-205 bridge reached 100,000 vehicles a day, while I-5 was moving 112,000 vehicles a day. As of 2006, I-5 carried 132,000 per day, or about 22,000 vehicles per lane, while I-205 was 146,000, or more than 18,000 vehicles per lane.

A straight-line projection of traffic growth indicates that demand for both crossings may be close to 400,000 vehicles a day by 2025. That’s more than 40 percent above current traffic levels. Straight-line projections are pretty crude, but considering that the region’s population is expected to continue growing at historic rates, this probably isn’t very far off.

However, congestion could temper this use. Considering daily peaks and troughs, the 22,000 cars per lane on the I-5 bridge is pretty close to the limit for a freeway. According to Highway Statistics 2005, table HM72, the most carried by any urban freeway system is a little more than 25,000 vehicle miles per lane mile.

Rush-hour congestion leads people to leave earlier or later than they would prefer in order to avoid that congestion. This leads to a broadening of the peaks in traffic flows. This is visible in the chart below, which shows hourly flows across the I-5 bridge. (Click on the chart and scroll down to see how peaks have changed since 1983.)



By comparison, the peaks in traffic on the I-205 bridge are still sharp, indicating that congestion is not yet a serious problem on this bridge.



This shows that the maximum practical capacity of the two bridges is not much more than about 310,000 vehicles per day — and that will be accompanied by a lot more congestion that is experienced today. If demand really reaches 400,000 vehicles in 2025 (which isn’t that far away), some 80,000 to 90,000 of those trips are going to go somewhere else. This could mean more job growth in Vancouver, less in Portland. Or it could mean more job growth in Boise, Billings, or other less congested cities.

The problem with congestion is actually pretty simple. Freeway lanes can supposedly move about 2,200 cars per hour, though it is probably somewhat higher if drivers dare to drive closer together. But this is at about 40 to 50 miles per hour. If traffic slows for any reason, the capacity rapidly declines. Let’s say traffic slows so that the capacity falls below 1,500 cars per hour. Then traffic will be stop-and-go, bumper-to-bumper, until actual traffic levels fall below 1,500. Since this can take hours, any brief traffic slowdown can result in lengthy delays.

One solution to this problem is to make sure that traffic flows never exceed some lower number, say 1,800 vehicles per hour, that is less vulnerable to slowdowns. That is partly what ramp metering is about. But the better way is congestion tolling: just vary the tolls by traffic levels to make sure traffic never exceeds the target volume.



The above photo shows California SR91, with congestion-tolled lanes in the middle and untolled lanes on the outside. Although there are far more vehicles in the untolled lanes, the tolled lanes are moving more vehicles per hour. In terms of passenger miles per hour, they are doing more work than the untolled lanes.

Americans once resisted tolls but now appear to accept them as a solution to congestion. However, they (or at least the politicians they elect) still resist tolling lanes that have historically been free. So Robert Poole and others have suggested that we build HOT lane networks parallel to existing free lanes throughout urban areas. Such networks will make it possible for those who choose to pay tolls to get anywhere in the urban areas at rush hour in the same amount of time as it would take them at midnight.

Columbia River crossing planners did not seriously consider the idea of adding new tolled lanes to supplement existing untolled lanes. Instead, they are more interested in building a light-rail bridge across the river, a dream of Portland planners for years. Planners are certainly dreaming today if they think they can divert much of I-5’s traffic to bus or light rail.

Rail advocates love to compare rail capacities with actual highway volumes, but that is comparing apples to oranges. If a freeway lane carried 1,800 vehicles per hour 24 hours a day with 1.6 people per vehicle, it would move nearly 70,000 passenger miles per day. Considering peaks and troughs in flows, we have seen that actual uses max out at around 40,000 passenger miles a day. In the same way, rail lines have peaks and troughs in flows — most do not even operate 24 hours a day, and during the hours they operate, they only come close to capacity a few hours of the day.

Boston has the nation’s most heavily used light-rail system. The 2005 National Transit Database reports that average weekday traffic on this system was less than 12,000 passenger miles per directional-route mile — that is, per mile of track in a double-track line — each day. That is maybe a third of a typical urban freeway lane, and only a quarter of the heavily used lanes over the Columbia River.

A mile of track occupies roughly the same space as a freeway lane, so freeways are a more efficient use of land than light-rail transit. The only rail lines in the U.S. that are more efficient than freeways are New York City subways. Even accepting the idea that a lot of Vancouver commuters will be tempted to use a light-rail line, it is very unlikely that this line will do much better than Boston’s system, much less carry as many as a freeway lane.

So Portland is proposing to spend a billion dollars replacing the bridges with new freeway bridges of no greater capacity than today. These I-5 bridges will continue to carry at least 200,000 people across them per day (approximately 130,000 vehicles times 1.6), with demand for both crossings expected to grow by nearly 200,000 more in the next twenty years.

To accommodate this demand, Portland wants to spend another billion dollars building a light-rail line that might possibly carry about 20,000 people per day, or only about 10 percent of the projected growth in traffic. This is an absurd waste of resources, especially considering that light-rail fares won’t even cover the operating costs, and will cover zero percent of the capital costs, of the rail line and bridges.

It would make a lot more sense to either build new highway bridges with greater capacities or build a third highway crossing somewhere. The new capacity, or new bridges, could be tolled to insure that it never gets congested. These tolls would help cover the costs, and probably could cover the entire cost of the new bridges if all lanes were tolled.

The good news is that the Federal Highway Administration is openly questioning Portland’s anti-highway transportation planning. The Columbia River crossing is a test case. If Portland refuses to add new highway capacity, the federal government should deny interstate highway funds to the region.

Unless Portland’s policies change, if you plan to travel between Seattle and California anytime in the next fifty years, I strongly advise you to fly.

Last edited by Urbanpdx; Feb 16, 2007 at 9:45 PM.
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  #1098  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 9:35 PM
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ahhh, the antiplanner... how utterly opinionated and self-rightious.

i like the part where it focuses on the $1 billion cost for transit (which doesn't have any mention of how they came up with this number), but doesn't even mention the $5 billion for roadways (skirts around it by saying the bridge costs the same). i love number manipulation.

Last edited by NJD; Feb 16, 2007 at 9:40 PM.
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  #1099  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 9:44 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
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I agree that he is often guilty of that but the push to efficiently allocate scarce road space with congestion pricing needs more attention.
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  #1100  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2007, 9:48 PM
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i just don't understand why this small kink in I-5 is so ungodly expensive when we could spend a fraction of that improving the worse bottlenecks of I-5 (2 lanes at the rose quarter 1/4 mile from the end interchange of I-84 is just silly, same with the columbia slew 2 lanes, and the on/off ramps at jantzen beach are way to close to the current interstate bridge.... ). can we start calling this project "Mt. Hood Freway II"?
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