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  #121  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
This is all very creative thinking, but the only thing less financeable than a large inventory of unsold condominiums in this city is a hotel.
Really...even though a hotel in Skycity could potentially command some of the highest room rates in the city and become the most desirable hotel in town assuming that it was flagged with a brand that has drawing power (which none of the other new downtown hotels have)? Hard to believe that a big block of unsold condos would be seen as more desirable by lenders.
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  #122  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 10:02 PM
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Is the St. Regis officially in the hands of Fortress? Or is there some form of MOU signed?

Doesn't sound like Fortress owns the St. Regis, CV does? So why couldn't the City or whomever step in and develop it another way if this drags out for another year or two. At which point it should be obvious whether or not SkyCity would be going ahead.
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  #123  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 10:02 PM
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Fortress and Mady have been pretty open that they are looking for outside investors to front a significant portion of SkyCity. What if the group that was behind the failed Westin proposal moved to SkyCity and claimed a third of the building, then another group stepped in to take over a third of the floors as pure rentals not up to the same finish levels as the condos. Suddenly the condo volume you need to sell drops significantly. That said, any of this happening is still a long shot but as this thread has covered this entire project, regardless of how it is structured, is really turning into a long shot itself.
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  #124  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Fortress and Mady have been pretty open that they are looking for outside investors to front a significant portion of SkyCity. What if the group that was behind the failed Westin proposal moved to SkyCity and claimed a third of the building, then another group stepped in to take over a third of the floors as pure rentals not up to the same finish levels as the condos. Suddenly the condo volume you need to sell drops significantly. That said, any of this happening is still a long shot but as this thread has covered this entire project, regardless of how it is structured, is really turning into a long shot itself.
Honestly, I think there's a credibility gap. I don't think any of those brands want to be associated with a company like Fortress. If it didn't work with the Aspers, it won't work with these guys.

As far as the St. Regis goes, CV owns it with the old owners leasing it back to run. I'm sure the accepted proposal has a timeline whereby certain milestones need to be met or the agreement expires or is violated, but the question will be whether the city is opening to continually renewing it in the face of any good news, regardless of how dubious. Like a Capital Pointe situation...
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  #125  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Really...even though a hotel in Skycity could potentially command some of the highest room rates in the city and become the most desirable hotel in town assuming that it was flagged with a brand that has drawing power (which none of the other new downtown hotels have)? Hard to believe that a big block of unsold condos would be seen as more desirable by lenders.
The comment was meant to be slightly hyperbolic to deliver the sentiment, but trying to convince a lender that your hotel might be just different enough to cannibalize demand is likely a risk they aren't interested in unless you're heavily, heavily staked...
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  #126  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2014, 11:06 PM
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Like a Capital Pointe situation...
The whole of SSP shuddered with that one.
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  #127  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2014, 5:33 PM
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Merit or not, I am just posting the advancements in the project. Whether the project is a sham - not financially viable - crooked developers - what ever, there wasn't a CM before and now there is. This is a construction related thread and although early in the project there is movement forward.

Until the project becomes cancelled or slows to no new news I will believe that it has as much chance as any other proposed project in this city.
Friggin eh..
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  #128  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2014, 6:19 PM
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Friggin eh..
Uh, no. That's not how it works. That's why people analyze things. Projects aren't a baseline 50/50 proposition. There are hundreds of variables that play into whether they manifest. Your inability to understand those variables does not mean they don't exist and the argument that 'positive' thinking is somehow what this project is missing is not contributory in any respect.

Now if you have some form of contrapuntal argument complete with a reasonably analytical case to be made, I'm all ears. But I haven't heard one person make a case for how this project is even remotely possible.

When it comes to convicted grifters, let's all try to exercise a little critical thinking. At the very least, just so the con isn't so easy...
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  #129  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2014, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Uh, no. That's not how it works. That's why people analyze things. Projects aren't a baseline 50/50 proposition. There are hundreds of variables that play into whether they manifest. Your inability to understand those variables does not mean they don't exist and the argument that 'positive' thinking is somehow what this project is missing is not contributory in any respect.

Now if you have some form of contrapuntal argument complete with a reasonably analytical case to be made, I'm all ears. But I haven't heard one person make a case for how this project is even remotely possible.

When it comes to convicted grifters, let's all try to exercise a little critical thinking. At the very least, just so the con isn't so easy...
Merry Christmas Simplicity..I hope you and yours have a great one..

I didn't read your post..but I was responding to another posters take on a proposal update, nothing more nothing less..

>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"until the project becomes cancelled or slows to no new news I will believe that it has as much chance as any other proposed project in this city."
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  #130  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2014, 4:22 PM
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I am an Ontario resident who was working on one of MADYs sites before it was shut down and taken over by the banks. They owe a lot of people a lot of money here in Ontario and look to be going bankrupt.

Fortress doesn't have a shiny resume either, they seem to have a ton of upcoming developments but no many completed ones. Their CEO has been banned for life from trading mutual funds.

I highly suggest thinking twice about investing or putting a down payment for a suite. The risk is way way to high with these 2 companies, stay safe!

http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/518...e-development/
http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/201...e-theatre-deal
http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/517...strates-buyer/
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  #131  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2014, 6:33 PM
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Yeah folks have gone in depth on here about fortress and the slime that runs it. There was a previous thread that is locked that had similar stories. I would only purchase a unit in this if it was under construction/nearing completion. Even then, I would think long and hard . Wouldn't give them any cash ahead of time. Why would I, so they could take their fees and then back out?
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  #132  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2014, 7:17 PM
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It makes me wonder why this thread exists at all.


Oh yeah.
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  #133  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by chron View Post
I am an Ontario resident who was working on one of MADYs sites before it was shut down and taken over by the banks. They owe a lot of people a lot of money here in Ontario and look to be going bankrupt.

Fortress doesn't have a shiny resume either, they seem to have a ton of upcoming developments but no many completed ones. Their CEO has been banned for life from trading mutual funds.

I highly suggest thinking twice about investing or putting a down payment for a suite. The risk is way way to high with these 2 companies, stay safe!

http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/518...e-development/
http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/201...e-theatre-deal
http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/517...strates-buyer/
A few utterly hilarious things from these articles:

1) 'Sub-trade failure' as a reason for delay. Generally a common problem on projects where they're, y'know, not getting paid. You know how long you need to string out a sub on a huge contract for them to slap a lien on your project? A long time. It's bad business. Subs don't like screwing with the general. I wouldn't be surprised if the first couple month's cheques cleared and none of the rest. An almost $2MM electrical lien on a project that's about 15% complete means almost nobody's seen any money.

2) Unexpected cost overruns because of additional floors. I don't even know where to being with this. It isn't like one day somebody showed up to the site with an idea. Those floors would have been known about for what was probably years. That nobody bothered costing them? Or did and ignored it? I don't know which is worse.

3) Those poor people in the third article are never getting their units. Construction in Ontario is up like 12% in the last three years. If anybody thinks they're getting their units delivered at the 2011 price they paid, then everybody needs to give their heads a shake.

4) Banks don't refinance people who are in the hole on the basis of their own incompetence. Unless Mady can figure out a way to wring more money out of the purchasers and tenants, there's nothing to refinance; the value has already been set. The owners need to kick in more equity to cover the shortfall. Or, since purchasers and tenants all have signed contracts, you're depending on their goodwill. Good luck with that.
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  #134  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 8:02 AM
Bluenote Bluenote is offline
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I get the point why people are not to happy with these guys. But in a lesser word their skimming profits off deposits makes me also wonder about one huge thing they DID pay for. The $9million for the land!!!! That's why I don't get this entire project. If you are going to rip people off you wouldn't pay that much for land and then never build on it. Because if that's the plan. I doubt they are going to get the $9million back and that would just make it a break even point.
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  #135  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 3:58 PM
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I get the point why people are not to happy with these guys. But in a lesser word their skimming profits off deposits makes me also wonder about one huge thing they DID pay for. The $9million for the land!!!! That's why I don't get this entire project. If you are going to rip people off you wouldn't pay that much for land and then never build on it. Because if that's the plan. I doubt they are going to get the $9million back and that would just make it a break even point.
They didn't pay anything for the land. A different group of unsophisticated investors who bought shares in a different 'syndicated mortgage' paid for the land. Two nice things to note about this purchase:

1) Fortress got paid a huge commission right up front on the purchase of the land and that's why they paid $9.5MM.

2) The land isn't even held by the investors. It's held in a completely different numbered company which is then technically lent the money from the corporation held by the investors. In other words, there's no recourse unless a bankruptcy judge orders the land sold to make good on the initial investment. You can bet how much value there will be left once the lawyers and receivers are done finding a buyer for land that was charitably worth about $3MM to begin with.
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  #136  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 4:05 PM
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I am an Ontario resident who was working on one of MADYs sites before it was shut down and taken over by the banks. They owe a lot of people a lot of money here in Ontario and look to be going bankrupt.
That's awesome. Hope they gave you a few thousand bucks to post this, first time poster!
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  #137  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 4:15 PM
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That's awesome. Hope they gave you a few thousand bucks to post this, first time poster!
Who do you think is paying him or her off? It appears that there are many people with various grievances against Mady/Fortress, so I hope it wasn't much.

While we're asking questions, I wonder how long until this thread gets libel chilled into lockdown?
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  #138  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 4:23 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Who do you think is paying him or her off? It appears that there are many people with various grievances against Mady/Fortress, so I hope it wasn't much.

While we're asking questions, I wonder how long until this thread gets libel chilled into lockdown?
I like how a moderator around here is actually acting as an apologist. I mean, there's no possibility that all of those news articles are correct or even Charles Mady himself when he talks about the straits in which the project and others are currently in. No. Instead, it's fairly obvious that some sub presumably? I have no idea. Anyway, somebody is paying some random person to post links to newspaper articles in a forum? But we don't know who and there isn't even any logical explanation as to why. Especially given the insanity of why you might pay somebody to do what three separate newspapers have already done for free.

And a lawyer can send notices of libel all day long. The best defense from libel/slander is the truth. If that lawyer also wants to pass along some case law exhibiting a party that was found guilty of re-posting an internet article that quotes his client, I'd be happy to read through it. Everything else we talk about is either in a published, publicly accessible bond rating or is everyday investment speculation which isn't libel under any definition.
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  #139  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 4:27 PM
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And a lawyer can send notices of libel all day long. The best defense from libel/slander is the truth. If that lawyer also wants to pass along some case law exhibiting a party that was found guilty of re-posting an internet article that quotes his client, I'd be happy to read through it. Everything else we talk about is either in a published, publicly accessible bond rating or is everyday investment speculation which isn't libel under any definition.
I agree, but what other explanation could there be for the mysterious disappearance of the previous thread about this project? It's not terribly surprising, really... if I ran this forum and received such a demand, I'd probably just yank the thread and call it a day instead of digging in my heels. The very act of libel chill is meant to silence discussion by making it a potentially costly proposition to carry on with the conversation... even if you're 100% right in the eyes of the law, engaging a lawyer to prove it still comes with a significant upfront pricetag.

However, if that's what happened, it would certainly be indicative of how sensitive the project's proponents are to bad publicity. That old thread had a very high Google rank... someone obviously didn't appreciate seeing such unsupportive dialogue coming up in the first few hits in a search for Skycity Centre Winnipeg.
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  #140  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2014, 5:45 PM
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I agree, but what other explanation could there be for the mysterious disappearance of the previous thread about this project? It's not terribly surprising, really... if I ran this forum and received such a demand, I'd probably just yank the thread and call it a day instead of digging in my heels. The very act of libel chill is meant to silence discussion by making it a potentially costly proposition to carry on with the conversation... even if you're 100% right in the eyes of the law, engaging a lawyer to prove it still comes with a significant upfront pricetag.

However, if that's what happened, it would certainly be indicative of how sensitive the project's proponents are to bad publicity. That old thread had a very high Google rank... someone obviously didn't appreciate seeing such unsupportive dialogue coming up in the first few hits in a search for Skycity Centre Winnipeg.
Yeah, I'd agree. I don't doubt there's somebody sitting with a Google alert in the office and notifying their counsel when something potentially harmful arises.

But we're doing god's work around here . I have no idea what the traffic is to this site or what it may have been to others, but if there's even a word-of-mouth campaign that can cause some people to give pause to their decision to invest with a company like this or perhaps sway the public in a way that doesn't make the grift as easy as it may otherwise be, then it's successful.

Things probably only get worse for these guys because that's how leverage works; when one thing collapses, the rest go with. Both because finance is a game of somebody's confidence in you and because loan-to-values require more cash upon market devaluation. And since the likelihood of Mady getting refinanced is a shade north of impossible, the bank can push them into bankruptcy where they'd no doubt happily go in order to protect personal assets. And that's why the structure is set up the way it is. Everything is subordinate to the construction financing because the bank knows if they have to punt the developer 25% of the way through the project they'll be fire-saling it to somebody who will take it at 35 cents on the dollar. They don't want to fight bondholders for that cash.

Last edited by Simplicity; Dec 29, 2014 at 7:08 PM.
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