Winnipeg | Forks Redevelopment | Parcel 4 - Rail Side Initiative | Proposals

[Biff]

Originally Posted by esquire

and now people are on the verge of quitting their jobs just to make sure they can snag prime seating in there. (OK, I made that last part up)

...WHAT! I, uh just quit my job because I thought you really meant it about the Forks. I need to sit when I eat. Shit, now what.....

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's really something else to see this newfound civic mania for The Forks. Just 5 years ago it was looking kind of tired and worn out, and now people are on the verge of quitting their jobs just to make sure they can snag prime seating in there. (OK, I made that last part up)

I think part of it is just that the population growth of Winnipeg over the past decade is starting to show itself, especially at "touristy" (for WPG anyway) places.

Took the kids to the ice sculptures at the Forks last week on Wednesday night, and it was busy. And I would estimate that a good 30-50% of the people there were not speaking english - or french.

[esquire]

^ I've definitely noticed that. As you know I have young kids so I'm often going to family activity-oriented places. So whether it's The Forks, skating rinks or the toboggan run at St. Vital Park, there's a large proportion of people who strike me as recent arrivals who are exploring and taking in the city's winter scene. It's nice to see these places bustling.

Incidentally I was at Kildonan Park yesterday and it was, to my surprise, absolutely dead, but I think everyone was at home hunkering down for the storm.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

Those are incredible numbers.

Now that the Commons is on fire FNP could stand to improve other parts of the market to accommodate these big crowds. Washrooms are somewhat inadequate now, with just one mid-sized main floor washroom and a few tiny ones throughout the building. It would be nice if they duplicated the seating arrangements of the middle atrium in the other two wings as well... seating is at a real premium a lot of the time. They might also have to remove some of the retail spaces on the floor as they block movement when the place fills up.

It's really something else to see this newfound civic mania for The Forks. Just 5 years ago it was looking kind of tired and worn out, and now people are on the verge of quitting their jobs just to make sure they can snag prime seating in there. (OK, I made that last part up)

That is exactly what is happening, they just can't do it all at once. Did the money-making parts first, and are now moving on to the rest.

Existing mens/womens washrooms are getting redone. The space around where the produce market used to be is getting a bunch of new individual accessible/neutral washrooms. They ended the produce shop and Generation Green's leases in order to clear up more space in the halls. Look for major changes upstairs, but will likely focus on finishing main floor renos first.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by buzzg

That is exactly what is happening, they just can't do it all at once. Did the money-making parts first, and are now moving on to the rest.

Existing mens/womens washrooms are getting redone. The space around where the produce market used to be is getting a bunch of new individual accessible/neutral washrooms. They ended the produce shop and Generation Green's leases in order to clear up more space in the halls. Look for major changes upstairs, but will likely focus on finishing main floor renos first.

I understand a small bar of some kind is going into the old produce area as well.

[buzzg]

Just read the plan in more detail... not sure how accurate the estimation is, but it's interesting (read: depressing) that The Forks has pegged the RT connection @ Union Station to happen in 12 years... 2030.

Also VERY interesting to note here is that TFNP (The Forks North Portage Corp.) is now referring to itself as FRC (The Forks Renewal Corp.). Good hint that their involvement in North Portage is going to be coming to an end soon... good sign.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Just read the plan in more detail... not sure how accurate the estimation is, but it's interesting (read: depressing) that The Forks has pegged the RT connection @ Union Station to happen in 12 years... 2030.

Also VERY interesting to note here is that TFNP (The Forks North Portage Corp.) is now referring to itself as FRC (The Forks Renewal Corp.). Good hint that their involvement in North Portage is going to be coming to an end soon... good sign.

maybe one or both of the bookend towers will finally get launched if frc sells the parking garage to developers. that has been an impediment before.

I get a little bit nervous about the idea of FRC having tons of money from the sale and/or their operations as I worry that the shareholders might be tempted to raid the cookie jar. but then again worrying is my nature when it comes to our beloved forks lol..

[bomberjet]

Pardon my ignorance. But shareholders of the Forks? Is it not owned by the City in some form?

It was mentioned on here recently that Johnston terminal is owned by ARTIS.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Just read the plan in more detail... not sure how accurate the estimation is, but it's interesting (read: depressing) that The Forks has pegged the RT connection @ Union Station to happen in 12 years... 2030.

Also VERY interesting to note here is that TFNP (The Forks North Portage Corp.) is now referring to itself as FRC (The Forks Renewal Corp.). Good hint that their involvement in North Portage is going to be coming to an end soon... good sign.

I'm not sure if that necessarily means anything. Prior to Forks North Portage there were the North Portage Development Corporation and a subsidiary called the Forks Renewal Corp. The two merged in the 90's to form Forks North Portage.

They could just be using a legacy name which was specific to the forks development.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by cheswick

I'm not sure if that necessarily means anything. Prior to Forks North Portage there were the North Portage Development Corporation and a subsidiary called the Forks Renewal Corp. The two merged in the 90's to form Forks North Portage.

They could just be using a legacy name which was specific to the forks development.

I don't know the ins and outs of ownership and management structures, but it looks like the Forks is owned by Forks Renewal Corporation (though some parts of it near the Red River are listed as being owned by the Crown), and Portage Place is owned by the North Portage Development Corporation. I think in recent years, the only connection between the Fork and North Portage was that the profitable Portage Place parkade was subsidizing operating costs at the Forks. But I imagine that this isn't the case now that the Forks is ramping up commercial stuff in the Market building. (And this may also mean that parkade revenues can now pay to make upgrades to Portage Place for the first time ever.)

[bomberjet]

I see the governments are the 'shareholder'.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wardlow

I don't know the ins and outs of ownership and management structures, but it looks like the Forks is owned by Forks Renewal Corporation (though some parts of it near the Red River are listed as being owned by the Crown), and Portage Place is owned by the North Portage Development Corporation. I think in recent years, the only connection between the Fork and North Portage was that the profitable Portage Place parkade was subsidizing operating costs at the Forks. But I imagine that this isn't the case now that the Forks is ramping up commercial stuff in the Market building. (And this may also mean that parkade revenues can now pay to make upgrades to Portage Place for the first time ever.)

I wouldn't expect FNP to put any money into Portage Place given that a private investment company owns the above-grade part of it.

Is there anything preventing FNP from selling the parkade to Portage Place's owner? Maybe that might work out better in the long run, then the owner might be more inclined to reinvest some of the parkade's profits into the rest of the complex.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I see the governments are the 'shareholder'.

yes. it is a three share corporation. the rules of governance are set out in a Shareholders Agreement. each level appoints three board members and they have to agree on a chair.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wouldn't expect FNP to put any money into Portage Place given that a private investment company owns the above-grade part of it.

Is there anything preventing FNP from selling the parkade to Portage Place's owner? Maybe that might work out better in the long run, then the owner might be more inclined to reinvest some of the parkade's profits into the rest of the complex.

Besides what was mentioned above, in that the PP parkade subsidies the Forks which runs at a loss. At least that was the case 5-10 years ago when there was interest in building on the pad but only if they could obtain the parkade which FNP didn't want to divest. I know since then the forks has become more self-sufficient.

Retail at Portage Place is nearing exinction. Two long time retailers have shut up shop in the last month. A hat shop in the wing heading to One Canada Centre and shoe store on the main floor which has been there as long as I can remember (Quarks?).

[esquire]

^ That's what I mean, maybe it made sense to use the PP parkade money to prop up The Forks when PP was still a bit healthier, but these days it's starting to look like PP is the one that could really use the help.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Pardon my ignorance. But shareholders of the Forks? Is it not owned by the City in some form?

It was mentioned on here recently that Johnston terminal is owned by ARTIS.

Evenly split between all three levels of government. They don't intervene or put any opinion into its operations though. Simply hands-off owners. They also won't make money off it once The Forks makes a profit – all goes back in to the site.

Originally Posted by wardlow

I don't know the ins and outs of ownership and management structures, but it looks like the Forks is owned by Forks Renewal Corporation (though some parts of it near the Red River are listed as being owned by the Crown), and Portage Place is owned by the North Portage Development Corporation. I think in recent years, the only connection between the Fork and North Portage was that the profitable Portage Place parkade was subsidizing operating costs at the Forks. But I imagine that this isn't the case now that the Forks is ramping up commercial stuff in the Market building. (And this may also mean that parkade revenues can now pay to make upgrades to Portage Place for the first time ever.)

The whole thing operates as one unit, and yes "The Forks" would still lose millions if it wasn't for the PP Parkade. Whole point of developing Railside (beyond finishing The Forks) is so TFNP can divest itself of the North Portage assets – they don't want to be there anymore and feel like they're preventing redevelopment of PP and the lots to the north.

Originally Posted by esquire

I wouldn't expect FNP to put any money into Portage Place given that a private investment company owns the above-grade part of it.

Is there anything preventing FNP from selling the parkade to Portage Place's owner? Maybe that might work out better in the long run, then the owner might be more inclined to reinvest some of the parkade's profits into the rest of the complex.

TFNP owns the land and the parkade but not the mall. There has been people interested in redeveloping PP in the past (and apparently is still 1 VERY interested), but there's no way to make towers on the pads work without the parkade being owned by said developer as well. But TFNP can't give up the parkade until The Forks becomes self-sufficient.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ That's what I mean, maybe it made sense to use the PP parkade money to prop up The Forks when PP was still a bit healthier, but these days it's starting to look like PP is the one that could really use the help.

PP parkade revenues are growing every year, regardless of the mall's state. It's one of the premiere parkades in Winnipeg, connected to all of the skywalk buildings, popular for events – it makes a ton of money. And lets not forget that even though PP "popular retail" might be dead – it's still very busy during the week with through traffic, food court, services, "less desirable" shops etc.

[esquire]

^ Portage Place's parkade must be a goldmine given that it's the de facto parkade for many of the employees in the following office buildings:

-Air Canada Building
-Manitoba Hydro
-Manitoba Health
-Investors Group (well, the non-executive staff at least)
-Portage Place level 3 and 4 offices

Evenings are busy with lots of Jets and Moose traffic.

With all of the people working around there, I'm actually somewhat surprised that you can still easily get a casual parking spot pretty well any day.

[dmacc]

Maybe the forks could be self sufficient if they gave up the PP parkade but started charging
at the parkade at the forks. I know it's much small and would command much less money but would probably bring in a bit more revenue... maybe enough to be self sufficient?

[esquire]

^ They do charge for parking at The Forks parkade now. I don't think there is much if any free parking at all left at The Forks.

In fact, parking is starting to become a little scarce at The Forks on busier days. Hopefully they'll get cracking on the railside developments too since that will include some parking IIRC. (What's happening on that front anyway? When will work get started on those?)

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Portage Place's parkade must be a goldmine given that it's the de facto parkade for many of the employees in the following office buildings:

-Air Canada Building
-Manitoba Hydro
-Manitoba Health
-Investors Group (well, the non-executive staff at least)
-Portage Place level 3 and 4 offices

Evenings are busy with lots of Jets and Moose traffic.

With all of the people working around there, I'm actually somewhat surprised that you can still easily get a casual parking spot pretty well any day.

Believe it makes in the neighbourhood of $5-6m a year. It might even be in their financials online somewhere.

Originally Posted by dmacc

Maybe the forks could be self sufficient if they gave up the PP parkade but started charging
at the parkade at the forks. I know it's much small and would command much less money but would probably bring in a bit more revenue... maybe enough to be self sufficient?

Originally Posted by esquire

^ They do charge for parking at The Forks parkade now. I don't think there is much if any free parking at all left at The Forks.

In fact, parking is starting to become a little scarce at The Forks on busier days. Hopefully they'll get cracking on the railside developments too since that will include some parking IIRC. (What's happening on that front anyway? When will work get started on those?)

Yeah they started last year. A few (old) people freaked out and said they'd never come back – good riddance. In talking to the staff there though, they said they were actually shocked how little pushback there was, and that many people (especially younger) supported it, knowing that the money goes right back into The Forks for improvements, and not just to the city coffers.

To me that speaks volumes to the great work their doing, because in the past even the slightest change had the whole city up in arms. People see the vision now, and they get it.

In terms of future parking, I think we're 5 years out from any major parking additions, minimum. Medium-long term there are plans for a parkade on Main north of Union Station, one adjacent to the existing one by Festival Field, and way down the road if needed by Citytv. Other than that, doesn't seem like there's a plan to add more parking other than a small amount dedicated to residents. They are planning on either working with a car co-op or creating their own for residents at Railside.