The "me-too" movement

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

The problem is that in many cases there isn't, or what exists is simply lip service. Working in the public service there is absolutely a robust system to report things and I know people who have gone through it which resulted in a termination. I imagine things are similar at large corporations as well. The process isn't fun, but it generally works, I think.

But in some organizations / industries this just isn't the case. As I mentioned above I know people who, if they reported what happened, nothing would be likely to happen. And that's kind of a best case scenario - at worst they would become a pariah. I think that's a big part of why things became endemic within certain circles and reached a breaking point where we are now.

I'm not really sure what the solution is, and I don't think it's ideal having the media play the judge and jury. But I understand why we have reached that point. As I mentioned above too, even for cases where a clearly illegal action took place the court system isn't really ideal as it currently exists.

And I also wonder if in spite of the current media frenzy, if people who are victims of harassment in workplaces out of the public eye aren't still going to be left in the lurch with no more options for redress than they had before this all started. It's not as if people are going to yell "stop the presses!" and make headlines with the fact that someone pinched a co-worker's butt at a real estate office in Owen Sound...

I guess today there is the option of denouncing a (former) boss on social media but that's a dangerous game where a person more powerful than you in the community (and the many supporters they might have) can also fire back at you, turn the tables and even ruin your life.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I do have 2 main concerns however about the me-too movement. First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system.

Originally Posted by Architype

The Court of Public Opinion has newly acquired powers, but is not yet well developed in the exercise of justice.

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is all true but I think we need to decide if as a society if we want the media to increasingly play the role of judge and jury.

The court system is far from perfect in spite of the fact that it is subject to extensive oversight measures that have teeth. No such oversight exists for the media, and even less for social media where a lot of the "rulings" about people are taking place.

Not to comment on any specific case.

However, I do have grave concerns where the internet and social media combined with the personal attachment of smart phones is taking us and the future generations. Ever since these technologies were made available to the general public, people had developed a rather unhealthy notion that whatever is "All Over The Internet" must therefore be "True".

The ability of critical and independent thinking seems to take a back seat. Most things have been taken on their face values alone. People willingly let the internet and social media do the thinking for them. The whole experience with the internet has become emotions based rather than facts based, and far too many let themselves to be influenced by the emotions and opinions of others in a very dramatic way. Hence, the so-called "Viral" responses which happen quite regularly. Such mentality makes internet abuse and bullying possible which can lead to deadly consequences.

When it comes to serious allegations of certain individuals we've learned in the news, people with severely limited facts and misguided sense of justice turn themselves into social judges and executioners calling for blood to spill. It is a truly terrifying social phenomenon that didn't exist before the internet and social media age. The only similar circumstance that I can compare it to is the Witch Hunt in the medieval age.

It seems increasingly that people's own private opinions and prejudices have become the forth front of justice, and our legal system which is paramount to our society and civilization has been perceived by some as a kind of obstacle to their "Court of Public Opinions" and "True Justice of the Internet". It is totally twisted and irrational, and surely something every sensible person should be worrying about.

We should critically consider what internet and social media really are in the context of our society, and how we want them to be.

[Acajack]

The criminal justice and legal system we have was precisely the result of humanity *evolving* away from a "mob rule" approach to justice, which on too many occasions led to Old Bob being strung up, and then people discovering after the fact that he didn't actually do it...

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The criminal justice and legal system we have was precisely the result of humanity *evolving* away from a "mob rule" approach to justice, which on too many occasions led to Old Bob being strung up, and then people discovering after the fact that he didn't actually do it...

You are absolutely right. This is precisely my concern.

Seems like all these new innovative technologies in consumer products do little to help us become better members of society or even human. The convenience and global connectivity the internet and smart phones provide tend to bring out the bad side of human nature, as people can now say and do bad things in their own privacy hiding behind a computer screen. They can now be a lot more free and irresponsible for their actions than ever before without worrying about consequences.

Internet is supposed to bring people all over the world together in a better way. Unfortunately it is not happening.....

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by bless-u

It seems increasingly that people's own private opinions and prejudices have become the forth front of justice, and our legal system which is paramount to our society and civilization has been perceived by some as a kind of obstacle to their "Court of Public Opinions" and "True Justice of the Internet". It is totally twisted and irrational, and surely something every sensible person should be worrying about.

I've seen some of the more radical go so far as to consider our legal system (and concepts like "innocent until proven guilty") a tool of patriarchal oppression & white supremacy.

Not a common opinion of course, but a potentially dangerous one, as it provides them with moral justification for extra-judicial justice.

[MolsonExport]

Trivializing the prevalence of sexual assault and sexual harassment--experienced by many (if not most for the latter) women at some point in their lives--is utterly reprehensible. It is akin to those that trivialized the racism and bigotry experienced by Black Americans during the Civil Rights Movement, and those that continue to trivialize the widespread prejudice faced by our First Nations communities.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by bless-u

When it comes to serious allegations of certain individuals we've learned in the news, people with severely limited facts and misguided sense of justice turn themselves into social judges and executioners calling for blood to spill. It is a truly terrifying social phenomenon that didn't exist before the internet and social media age. The only similar circumstance that I can compare it to is the Witch Hunt in the medieval age.

I get what you're saying, but this isn't really true. Mob justice existed before the internet and it still does today. It's less common in places with a robust legal system like Canada, but still exists within isolated communities. In countries where this doesn't exist it's not uncommon to see someone seriously injured or killed for a perceived injustice. I have even heard firsthand examples of people who don't live dissimilar lifestyles to most middle class Canadians who choose to hire a "private investigator" to "teach someone a lesson" because they don't want to wait out a robust but extremely overworked legal system.

With regards to social media and witch hunts it certainly can be a big issue, but I do wonder how it will play out in time. The examples we see tend to be extreme but at the same time there are people who put out false accusations through the same channels and see harsh repercussions (losing jobs, even facing criminal charges). This isn't ideal too, of course, but at some point an equilibrium may be reached and/or better oversight will exist on these issues. It's early days, and it can be scary. But I don't think there's any putting the cat back in the bag any time soon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Jesus dude you have some serious issues.

Mistercorporate is a bit off his rocker. It seems like he's trying to become the "Mousquet of Canada"!

But anyway, he still raises an interesting and fundamental point: human seduction has always been something of a "cat and mouse" game. About trying and even pushing your luck, playing hard to get, pretending you're not going to give in, deciding when to give in.

What we are trying to police and force into a specific framework is actually a basic trait of human nature.

I don't know how much coverage there was in the rest of the country, but recently the French actress Catherine Deneuve published an open letter critical of #MeToo in LeMonde also signed by a whole bunch of notable French women.

Being the nice guy that I am, I've found an English translation of it.

https://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-...herine-deneuve

Some of the statements that have drawn the most attention:

"Rape is a crime. But trying to pick up someone, however persistently or clumsily, is not — nor is gallantry an attack of machismo."

"Philosopher Ruwen Ogien defended the freedom to offend as essential to artistic creation. In the same way, we defend a freedom to bother as indispensable to sexual freedom."

The letter has drawn both applause and criticism. Deneuve actually apologized to victims of sexual assaults when they said they felt it minimized their plight. But she and the others still stand by the fundamentals of their argument.

https://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-...herine-deneuve

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I've seen some of the more radical go so far as to consider our legal system (and concepts like "innocent until proven guilty") a tool of patriarchal oppression & white supremacy.

Not a common opinion of course, but a potentially dangerous one, as it provides them with moral justification for extra-judicial justice.

That's an important thing to point out, although my first reaction to that is that it's therefore critically important for the legal system to reach out to those doubting demographics in order to convince them that it's worthy of their trust.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I've seen some of the more radical go so far as to consider our legal system (and concepts like "innocent until proven guilty") a tool of patriarchal oppression & white supremacy.

Not a common opinion of course, but a potentially dangerous one, as it provides them with moral justification for extra-judicial justice.

It is always terrifying to see how some people would abuse the system, whatever it is, to satisfy their own personal beliefs and twisted point of view. It is also very disconcerting to know almost every system can be abused in the wrong hands, and numerous will fall victims. It happens over and over again in human history. With internet and smart phones nowadays, this now happens in a wholesale scale globally. The social and cultural boundaries have disappeared exposing the insidious side of human nature.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by niwell

Mob justice existed before the internet and it still does today.

Originally Posted by geotag277

The internet is allowing us all to have conversations with each other about these issues. If you think mob justice, mob rule, and so on, didn't exist before the internet, you are kidding yourself.

True, but mob justice happens far more often these days and in much larger scale and a lot more rapidly, thanks to new technologies in consumer products. People can now over-react to a particular event in nano-seconds and have their emotions felt across the globe by a considerably huge audience almost immediately. By manipulating the informations, they now have the ability to shape and influence the opinions and minds of the unsuspecting crowds who rely the social media to do the thinking for them. That wasn't possible before the internet age for sure. That's the real issue here.

[niwell]

Interesting and thought provoking article - I agree with some parts of it but others I think are a bit too simplistic an approach to a nuanced issue.

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Rape is a crime. But trying to pick up someone, however persistently or clumsily, is not — nor is gallantry an attack of machismo."

Examining this in particular, which I agree with 100% at face value (who hasn't tried to pick someone up at a bar?). But how exactly do we define "persistent"? If someone is told to fuck off repeatedly when trying to hang out with friends at a bar, is it still ok to keep asking? I know many, many people who have been in that situation. What about when someone decides to try and follow you home from the bar? Again, I know people who have been there and been extremely afraid for their safety. You could make an argument that the last one crosses the legal boundary, but in reality nothing is likely to happen if you call the police.

I would hope a reasonable approach is taking an emphatic "No" at face value. People should also take into account context and cues, which is also an intrinsic part of human nature. But I know some are not willing to do that.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by bless-u

True, but mob justice happens far more often these days and in much larger scale and a lot more rapidly, thanks to new technologies in consumer products. People can now over-react to a particular event in nano-seconds and have their emotions felt across the globe by a considerably huge audience almost immediately. By manipulating the informations, they now have the ability to shape and influence the opinions and minds of the unsuspecting crowds who rely the social media to do the thinking for them. That wasn't possible before the internet age for sure. That's the real issue here.

That is true, but in this day and age people are also likely to forget about things in nano-seconds. The online world has a collective memory the size of a goldfish. In my experience things usually tend to stick only after someone doubles down on something.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Trivializing the prevalence of sexual assault and sexual harassment--experienced by many (if not most for the latter) women at some point in their lives--is utterly reprehensible. It is akin to those that trivialized the racism and bigotry experienced by Black Americans during the Civil Rights Movement, and those that continue to trivialize the widespread prejudice faced by our First Nations communities.

It's a bit amusing watching the absolute freak out unfold as men go from being in this comfortable position of ignoring or remaining wilfully ignorant of the widespread systemic sexual harrassment that has existed for millenia, to transitioning into this "OMG, we have to be careful of how we act now? what are the consequences? this is unconscionable, untenable, unworkable!".

If anything considering the plain history, transitioning to being in a more defensive position cannot be argued as anything other than a move towards progress. All these crocodile tears about not being able to be ambiguously rapey anymore will necessarily imply widespread self-imposed celibacy are more telling than anything.

What are a few theoretical non-materialised "false allegations" compared to the sum total history of abuse directed at women even in modern times? Apparently, they are the most pressing concerning issue that must be dealt with immediately, especially before we even get a single instance of one!

Bizarre. Absurd. Dis. In. Gen. U. Ous.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by niwell

I would hope a reasonable approach is taking an emphatic "No" at face value. People should also take into account context and cues, which is also an intrinsic part of human nature. But I know some are not willing to do that.

Some people are tone deaf to cues (mild forms of Aspergers can be difficult to pick up on in a brief social encounter). These people can be persistent and possibly obnoxious, but aren't predators.

Of course, if somebody tries to follow you home, that certainly crosses the line......

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by bless-u

True, but mob justice happens far more often these days and in much larger scale and a lot more rapidly, thanks to new technologies in consumer products. People can now over-react to a particular event in nano-seconds and have their emotions felt across the globe by a considerably huge audience almost immediately. By manipulating the informations, they now have the ability to shape and influence the opinions and minds of the unsuspecting crowds who rely the social media to do the thinking for them. That wasn't possible before the internet age for sure. That's the real issue here.

The internet is allowing us all to have conversations with each other about these issues. If you think mob justice, mob rule, and so on, didn't exist before the internet, you are kidding yourself.

The internet has the potential to allow people to wall themselves into their own echo chambers and self imposed bubbles of thought - but it also has the potential to start conversations and allow people to be exposed to a wide variety of different views. The people who refuse to engage in other beliefs would likely behave like that before the internet, and those who are open to challenging themselves have much more freedom to do that with the internet than before the internet.

The internet, if anything, has exposed the insidious human nature that has always existed, and there is no better cure for it than to shine a big gaping light on it, expose it, and allow people to be challenged and join a wider social conversation that inevitably will bring everybody towards a common goal of mutual respect.

It will be a bumpy ride, as it always has been throughout human history, but we are moving in the right direction, and while the internet will not always be a positive influence on every aspect of the conversation at every point in time, IMO we are far better off with it as a megaphone to start conversations about social norms than in the pre-internet days.

[rousseau]

Wait a minute...unless I'm missing something, this situation with Patrick Brown is getting downright scary with how he's been drawn and quartered for "sexual misconduct with teenagers."

One case was meeting a drunk high school student in a bar taking her home and engaging in oral sex with her. At first blush that sounds creepy, but is it not fair to have assumptions about age when one is in a bar? The other was chatting up a university student in a plane, months later hiring her to work in his office, inviting her back to his place after a party, starting to kiss her when they're both on his bed, and then stopping when she told him to stop.

Fucking hell. This is sexual misconduct? Sexual hysteria, more like. I suppose it's inevitable with any sweeping cultural movement that people are going to get caught up in the whirlwind unfairly, but we all know what happens when you cry wolf.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Some people are tone deaf to cues (mild forms of Aspergers can be difficult to pick up on in a brief social encounter). These people can be persistent and possibly obnoxious, but aren't predators.

Of course, if somebody tries to follow you home, that certainly crosses the line......

So many excuses for women, well he should have picked up my body language! No, just no. Thank god I'm gay and I don't have to deal with that bullshit from dating women.

I'm really sorry for you guys!

[Hackslack]

I agree with some on here. This Metoo movement, while it has brought to light some very real and disgusting acts that deserve justice, is a slippery slope we are traveling down.

As some have said, when do pick up lines become considered harassment, where if the girl is playing hard to get, and is tough for a guy to read, that he all of a sudden gets called out on social media as being a harasser or pervert.

When does it then finally become unacceptable for women to wear shorter skirt, or any skirts for that matter, to a work environment. If someone is ever caught looking at the nice legs the woman is unafraid to show off, he may be called out as a pervert, or make the woman feel uncomfortable based off the way SHE THINKS he is looking. There comes a point where woman should not be able to wear skirts or any clothing that shows skin, because there is the POTENTIAL that a man may look, and the look may be perceived as pervish, to which the woman feels uncomfortable. And of course the workplace would almost need to fire the guy, otherwise they get labeled as a place that condones unacceptable sexual behaviors... but that then raises another question, who is ANYONE to tell a woman what is appropriate to wear, not only in a work environment, but any environment.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Fucking hell. This is sexual misconduct? Sexual hysteria, more like. I suppose it's inevitable with any sweeping cultural movement that people are going to get caught up in the whirlwind unfairly, but we all know what happens when you cry wolf.

I think many of us on this forum can recall instances where intimate activities were engaged in with implicit and not explicit consent. There may also be times when we conducted ourselves on the borderlines of sexual propriety and did some things which in hindsight may have been somewhat stupid and regrettable.

I don't think that makes most men predators, especially if you can only think of once or twice in your life where such things happened (especially long ago when you were a teenager or a young adult).

Given the current climate however, there are now a lot of frightened men out there, afraid that they could be accused of borderline questionable behaviour, who are hunkering themselves down and trying to avoid being noticed. How many otherwise well qualified men will now choose to avoid getting involved in politics, or volunteering for charitable organizations, or offering themselves for high profile positions for fear that some minor episode that they may have been involved in three decades ago will come to light, destroying their careers and their lives.

The current witch hunt will have a chilling effect on many men for quite some time I'm afraid.