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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 2:50 PM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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Downtown Toronto not a significant employment zone for 905ers

I had to crunch some numbers for a school project, and here is one interesting stat.

As of 2001(that is the most up to date info the city has), only

109,930 residents of Halton, Peel, York, and Durham Regions(905ers) worked in downtown Toronto.

Less than 10% of the 905 region workers.

Toronto is approaching American style decentralization pretty fast and this will have interesting impacts on transit ridership, sprawl, and access to jobs.
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 3:42 PM
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Just remember that the labour force includes people like teenagers/students working retail jobs (unless they live in/near the core, they probably won't even apply for jobs downtown), teachers teaching at suburban schools, and virtually all the industry is in the suburbs. 10% isn't that surprising.

If you were to isolate for office-based employment, or particularly the finance sector, I'm sure the percentage would be much higher.
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 4:12 PM
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Another month; another miketoronto post. Please explain to me in your infinite wisdom why in a city as populated and as vast as Toronto should employment be more centralized on the edge of the lake? I just don't see the appeal as you apparently do of an hour long commute via some sort of express transit.

Now, what might be interesting is to discuss improving 905 land use bearing in mind that car culture will continue to persist as well as cheap and quick construction.
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Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 7:24 PM
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I bet 62,649 of them are male, too. Obviously sexism is a big problem. We should have more government subsidies for women, and create initiatives to encourage commuters to use women more often.
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  #5  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 7:27 PM
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This might have more to do with the fact it takes an hour (driving) to get from say, Oakville to downtown. Close to 1.5 hours on transit.

And of course doesn't account for those workers in location based industries. You know, service, manufacturing, institutional etc? There are reasons for things to be located in the 905 too. Maybe we should transplant the several thousand municipal/regional government workers in Halton downtown though, because CLEARLY they shouldn't have offices in the SUBURBS. I can get on board with that, it would certainly make my commute easier.
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 4:16 AM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
This might have more to do with the fact it takes an hour (driving) to get from say, Oakville to downtown. Close to 1.5 hours on transit.
Actually 905ers have some of the best transit access to the core. Most can get downtown faster than people who live within Toronto and use the TTC.

Most of the 905 is within a 30-45 minute GO Train ride from downtown.

And almost the entire GTA is within an hour of downtown by GO Train.
If the trains were electrified, than the commutes would be even faster.
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Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 5:59 AM
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I wonder what the stats look like for Los Angeles.

If you think Toronto is decentralized...
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 4:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
And almost the entire GTA is within an hour of downtown by GO Train.
If the trains were electrified, than the commutes would be even faster.
You realize the trains are subject to speed limits, right? Because they have to pass through residential areas on what is essentially freight track, they won't be running much faster than they already are.

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If Toronto was in Europe it would be a veritable Shangri-la. A city fit for the Sun King himself. Mere celestials would tremble before it's gilded subways and high levels of downtown employment.
Oh god, I had a good laugh at that one.
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 4:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Actually 905ers have some of the best transit access to the core. Most can get downtown faster than people who live within Toronto and use the TTC.

Most of the 905 is within a 30-45 minute GO Train ride from downtown.

And almost the entire GTA is within an hour of downtown by GO Train.
If the trains were electrified, than the commutes would be even faster.
Of course this reasoning is based on the notion that the GO services the 905 exclusively.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2015, 10:37 PM
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This matches up with what I'm getting now that I'm looking into these patterns. About 100-110k 905ers working downtown and most of them get there by transit. 905ers do contribute to some downtown congestion but not as much as it's often made out to be.
http://swontariourbanist.blogspot.ca...from-part.html

Also - looking into it more, there's about as many downtown residents commuting by car (the ones going by car are mostly reverse commuting) as there are people commuting by car to downtown from the entire 905.
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2011, 8:45 PM
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Your lamentations should be more focused on commercial office space. Some of the GTA's largest suburban employers like hospitals, schools, amusement parks, municipalities, factories, auto plants, transportation companies...basically any space-extensive or location-based industry won't be moving downtown anytime soon. Also not everyone wants to eat and shop downtown.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 4:14 AM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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I am not saying I am worried about these stats. I just thought it was an interesting number and much lower than expected.

All you ever here about is packed GO Trains, and people needing access to the city. But really, a very very tiny amount of 905ers actually access the city on a daily basis. One has to wonder if all the new home ads which mention being close to the GO Train station even matters to 905 buyers, as so few go into the city on a daily basis?

We also hear endlessly from planners who are into the decentralization fad, that we need to continue decentralizing the GTA, because much too many people go into Toronto each day and it unbalances things. However this stat shows that not that many people actually are going into Toronto.

We have pretty much decentralized everything, and have what provincial planners want, jobs and residents all spread out. And what do we have to show for it? More traffic, pollution, and sprawl.

I wish I had this stat last semester when a planner in one of my classes was blaming traffic congestion in the GTA on not having enough jobs in the suburbs and people commuting.
I almost had to laugh when he said "Why does York Region have so much traffic, when they have an almost equal balance of jobs to residents".

So you can take this stat to be either good or bad.

My prediction is that the decentralization fad is going to be seen in 50 years to be just like public housing all in one spot is seen today. A bad idea and that planners took the idea way way way too far.

I know you guys think I am weird for standing up for downtown Toronto. However I don't really see why this is considered so out there.

People always go on about having to be like Europe. Well if Toronto was in Europe, our downtown would have over a million jobs in it, and be much more centralized than we are. And yes 905ers would be coming downtown to do their major shopping. Ohh and our GO Trains would also be carrying like 4 million people a day.
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post

People always go on about having to be like Europe. Well if Toronto was in Europe, our downtown would have over a million jobs in it, and be much more centralized than we are. And yes 905ers would be coming downtown to do their major shopping. Ohh and our GO Trains would also be carrying like 4 million people a day.
That is one of the most bizarre and inaccurate statements ever made on this site. Really, just baffling.
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
That is one of the most bizarre and inaccurate statements ever made on this site. Really, just baffling.
It is not really inaccurate. If Toronto was in Europe, our regional rail system would be much more frequent, and it of course would be carrying at least a couple million people a day, just like Paris' RER or London's suburban rail network, etc.

Secondly the other statements are true. Europeans even in the suburbs, rely on the central city to a much higher degree for major shopping(not to get milk, but for your major shopping like clothing and gifts, etc), and also for employment. That is just how it is.

Bari, Italy for example is not building a regional rail network centred on downtown Bari, because no one works there. They are building it, because they already have people working there who live in the surrounding region, and they are expecting even more.

So it really is not inaccurate. European CBD's are much more part of the daily lives of a larger amount of suburbanites than in North America. People still use the city to much higher degrees than here.
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Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 12:53 PM
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Are there even any European downtowns with a million jobs in them?
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Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 6:10 PM
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Are there even any European downtowns with a million jobs in them?
I doubt it. The only cities in the world that MIGHT have 1 million downtown workers are New York, Tokyo and Hong Kong.
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  #17  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 11:50 PM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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Are there even any European downtowns with a million jobs in them?
You bet there are.

London has over a million jobs in Central London. And they are planning on adding hundreds of thousands more.

The Paris CBD has over one million jobs, and the figure is higher when you include other areas which comprise the extended CBD like La Defense, which actually is not that far from Central Paris.
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Old Posted Mar 15, 2011, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
You bet there are.

London has over a million jobs in Central London. And they are planning on adding hundreds of thousands more.

The Paris CBD has over one million jobs, and the figure is higher when you include other areas which comprise the extended CBD like La Defense, which actually is not that far from Central Paris.
If you superimpose onto Toronto the size of Central London or Paris' CBD and La Defense which "aren't that far from each other" (so I guess we're including what's between them? Or are you willing to include NYCC and Scarborough Centre in your definition of downtown?), you're probably going to find at least a 700,000 jobs, and Toronto is just over half the size of London and a bit more than a third of the size of Paris.
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Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 1:07 PM
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Not having access to the raw statistics, I will have to guess that the concentration is probably much lower (than Toronto) in all North American cities except MAYBE for New York City. Definitely so for Vancouver and Montreal. Throughout history, and up until the present day, jobs have ALWAYS mostly been local, whether in the country, suburbs, or city. I doubt very highly that Central Paris/Central London have a million jobs (and yes, I have been to both on several occassions).
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2011, 4:41 PM
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how many 416'ers work in downtown Toronto ?

how does 110,000 905'ers working downtown compare to the total ?

how many 905'ers work in the rest of the 416 ?



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