TYSONS (Virginia) | Development Thread

[TYSON'S EXPONENTIAL]

TYSON'S EXPONENTIAL Coming to Tyson's Corner January 2012 at Clyde's of Tyson's Corner Brought to you buy Vantage Point Bank, a new perspective

[202_Cyclist]

How tall is too tall for Tysons Corner?


Jahi Chikwendiu/The Washington Post - Tysons Corner Center as seen from the roof of the Sheraton Premiere at Tysons Corner hotel.

By Jonathan O'Connell
November 27, 2011
Washington Post

"Fairfax County planners and real estate developers agree that there is a market for newly built apartments in Tysons Corner. The opportunity has home builders furiously buying properties within walking distance of the area’s four coming Metro stations.

But there is a growing chasm about whether the time is right for high-rise apartment buildings, soaring as tall as 30 stories. The decision about whether to build taller buildings with more units largely boils down to whether people looking to rent Tysons Corner apartments will be willing to pay extra for the quality finishes and scenic views that make the buildings financially feasible to construct..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...M2N_story.html

[TysonsEngineer]

I thought I would post some new photos from the tysons region as I was around town, I converted these to a rendered style in case anyone wanted to mess around and sketch in some ideas.

I hope to be taking a walk around the west park drive region sometime this week as there has been some serious activity in this region in the past month as well as the new zoning application for what is now some pretty run down 2 story offices directly adjacent to the new Lerner tower. Also I just started an "around town" style blog for Tyson's corner. It's pretty raw now but I have mostly been focusing on the actual look and template of the blog for the past month and can now finally start adding some news and content. Feel free to check it out www.thetysonscorner.com

All pictures by me;

[fleonzo]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

How tall is too tall for Tysons Corner?


Jahi Chikwendiu/The Washington Post - Tysons Corner Center as seen from the roof of the Sheraton Premiere at Tysons Corner hotel.


But there is a growing chasm about whether the time is right for high-rise apartment buildings, soaring as tall as 30 stories. The decision about whether to build taller buildings with more units largely boils down to whether people looking to rent Tysons Corner apartments will be willing to pay extra for the quality finishes and scenic views that make the buildings financially feasible to construct..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...M2N_story.html

Please tell us which "scenic views" those would be???

[Topher51]

Originally Posted by fleonzo

Please tell us which "scenic views" those would be???

You can see the National Cathedral from the top of the hill near the intersection of 7 and 123 from your car. I imagine 300 feet off the ground you could see more of DC in the distance. I wouldn't think it would be nearly as scenic as a view from a building in Rossyln or Courthouse though.

[202_Cyclist]

Topher51:

You can see the National Cathedral from the top of the hill near the intersection of 7 and 123 from your car. I imagine 300 feet off the ground you could see more of DC in the distance. I wouldn't think it would be nearly as scenic as a view from a building in Rossyln or Courthouse though.

Conversely, you can have a pretty good view of the Tyson's 'skyline' from Tenley and I'd think this view will be much better when many of these planned buildings are completed. We recently heard from a representative of Douglas Development about the planned condos at the Babe's Billiards site in Tenley and I asked about the potential views of Tysons from the units on the west side of the building.

[dgreen]

I'm not sure how good the view is, but I've heard the Washington Monument is visible from the Tower Club at the top of 8000 Towers Crescent (234 ft.). Another 70 feet up should provide some decent views.

Also, views to the west could be nice with the mountains in the distance. I remember seeing a condo for sale in Reston with western views. It was probably about 15 stories high and had nice views of the mountains.

[babybackribs2314]

One reason the tentative 400' height limit is stupid is that Tysons needs to be legitimately interesting, and from a skyline perspective, that means skyscrapers. Rosslyn is nice and dense but nothing can be iconic when all the top buildings are within 20-30' of each other in terms of height (although it will certainly be quite dense by 2015 with Central Place + 1812 N Moore done).

They should gradually auction off rights to construct ~10-20 towers north of 400', as several in the 600-800' range would do well to accent the monotony (maybe a 1,000'er as well ).

One perspective where the skyline is already somewhat impressive is coming into Tysons on Route 123, especially at night.

I do know that the tallest in anyone's proposal for their Tysons land was SAIC's tower, which will be ~430' with the roof element. The others;

392 ft: Capital One
~380 ft: NV Commercial, Cityline (several), Georgelas
~350 ft: Tysons II (several, some taller...), Tysons I (several)

Sure I'm missing some, but that's roughly 10 buildings significantly taller than anything in Tysons today, yet none are tall enough to truly stand out... (although the SAIC tower will have the highest elevation, so it could actually make an impact...).

[babybackribs2314]

I don't know why Fairfax isn't focusing more growth into Tysons... fewer infrastructure upgrades would be needed to significantly increase capacity. Something like a light-rail/trolley route looping around Tysons but transecting the Metro stations would do wonders in making Tysons a city unto itself.

FFX grew by ~110,000 between 2000 and 2010... if that growth is to be sustained, they should really get rid of the FAR limits for residential in Tysons... it would foster tremendous walk-ability and transforming Tysons into a place where people live should be the primary goal.

[shakman]

Originally Posted by babybackribs2314

One reason the tentative 400' height limit is stupid is that Tysons needs to be legitimately interesting, and from a skyline perspective, that means skyscrapers. Rosslyn is nice and dense but nothing can be iconic when all the top buildings are within 20-30' of each other in terms of height (although it will certainly be quite dense by 2015 with Central Place + 1812 N Moore done).

They should gradually auction off rights to construct ~10-20 towers north of 400', as several in the 600-800' range would do well to accent the monotony (maybe a 1,000'er as well ).

One perspective where the skyline is already somewhat impressive is coming into Tysons on Route 123, especially at night.

I do know that the tallest in anyone's proposal for their Tysons land was SAIC's tower, which will be ~430' with the roof element. The others;

392 ft: Capital One
~380 ft: NV Commercial, Cityline (several), Georgelas
~350 ft: Tysons II (several, some taller...), Tysons I (several)

Sure I'm missing some, but that's roughly 10 buildings significantly taller than anything in Tysons today, yet none are tall enough to truly stand out... (although the SAIC tower will have the highest elevation, so it could actually make an impact...).

Building skyscrapers that may sit empty would not be attractive for Tyson's. There is already an 18-story commercial structure under construction on a speculation basis. I am sure many lenders and developers are watching closely for any news of potential tenants for this highrise.

Tyson's would be a great place to have the tallest buildings in the region, however demand has to warrant for such projects to occur.

[TysonsEngineer]

Wow theres been a lot of discussion on here since my last post. Good points from a lot of people. On the height limits issue, if you build it in Tysons it has been proven the users will come. With Office space its a no brainer, if you build a 600' building it will sell and at really great rates as that kind of space is just not available in DC or Arlington even. While 1775 is currently being built speculatively, the fact that it sits one block from metro 123, and the fact that it will line up nicely with a likely recovering in the economy in 2013 we could see a perfect storm of under supplied real estate. Other office buildings over the past 3 years have maintained great occupancy rates even with the massive over stock of millions of square feet.

Whats really interesting is going to be when the new residential towers start opening. This is a segment of the market that just hasnt been in Tysons, or atleast not to a great extent. And I come bearing news!

-I attended the NovaForward conference where Georgelas confirmed their first residential tower will begin construction eminently (this month). I havent had a chance to take a tour of that area yet but I assume fencing and other light construction practices may already be taking place.
-I recently wrote an article on the Avalon Park Crest beginning to rise impressively (though it will top out at 6 stories). But more interestingly Park Crest Two, the newest in the complex is beginning construction. They have already begun earthwork on the new 19-story building which includes a dog park (which I will love). I will be writing a new article on my webpage soon about Park Crest 2.
-I just finished a new article on the Lerner projects status for 1775, but the interesting portion of the project will be the new 30-story condo towers along 123 which I hope they begin soon as well.

I'll keep on watching the developments around me and I hope when 1775 starts showing some interesting structural components to take a nice birds eye picture from near by. I ask anyone who is interested to please help support my news page (still in its infancy though growing up quickly) for the Tysons region at www.thetysonscorner.com

Also since you guys seem to know tysons corner as well as anyone else maybe give me some suggestions on some projects that you'd like more information on so I can do more research and talk to people involved.

[fleonzo]

Funny that after 16 years since I left that area (although I still go down about three or four times a year, for the holidays, to visit family) people still think 400ft+ is a big deal. Considering that both Baltimore and Richmond have had tall buildings for a long time you'd think people would "get over it". The Tyson area has grown impressively, no doubt, but that's mostly to people who have witnessed the change over the years. But when you're use to density and tall buildings- it’s really not a big deal at all if they were to build something larger than 400-500ft. The buildings there now still seem small.

[TysonsEngineer]

I couldn't agree with you more. It is this artificial number that anti-density advocates have created to push their misguided belief that big buildings means big traffic using "DC" as the reason why Virginia doesn't do it. Last time I checked DC and Virginia have had less than a cooperative relationship over the past 200 years, and outside of government contracts and metro coordination we could care less about the aesthetic preservation of views from within DC.

The truth is with higher density you do get more people, clearly, but you also get more incentive for the developer to provide density because his startup cost for variations can be covered by the fact that so much is being produced. The bigger the project you are making the more likely you are to provide bigger concessions and to better plan long term use for the system. When a project costs 200 million dollars, is anticipated to make 50 million dollars a year profit, then providing that road realignment, pedestrian walkway, and aesthetic amenities for 1-2 million seems like a no brainer if it means the project will be reviewed more smoothly. Now imagine a building that has 50% more height and space. The cost per additional space ratio will go down so now its a 270 million lets say, makes 75 million a year, developers would jumping over themselves to provide whatever amenities are being asked for in order to guarentee that kind of anticipated return. While I'm not specifically a cost estimator or a commercial/residential realestate expert I dont think those numbers are that far off.

Beyond the obvious profit benefit, now you are making a landmark structure, more prestigious clientele will be attracted to your site, those penthouse views will have people on waiting lists, and the best retail providers will want to be on your storefronts. I think its a no brainer, provide developers the ability to increase density etc if they provide other concessions.

[fleonzo]

Very true...in the end Tyson's will continue to expand but with buildings in the sub 250ft range.

[202_Cyclist]

Cityline signs three apartment developers


Since DLJ Real Estate Capital Partners acquired the largest portfolio in Tysons (outlined in green), it has sold some office buildings, put others up for sale as development sites, and retained many other sites for its own development plans through its company, Cityline Partners. View a larger version of the map here. (Image courtesy of the Washington Post)

By Jonathan O'Connell
January 8, 2012
Washington Post

"The largest landowner in Tysons Corner has inked three deals for hundreds of new apartments with major development partners in recent months, signaling continued and possibly growing interest in the suburban city by housing builders from around the country.

Cityline Partners, a crew of veteran Tysons developers, is managing the redevelopment of the Westgate and Westpark office parks for DLJ Real Estate Capital Partners, a Credit Suisse company that bought the property in 2010. Cityline recently finalized contracts for new apartment developments with three builders that could mean hundreds of new units for the area in coming years if they are approved by the county.

The rush to build apartments in Tysons, where four Metro stations are set to open in late 2013 or early 2014, could pave the way for the area to add 80,000 residents by 2050, a goal adopted by Faifax County in 2010. County officials anticipate that high-density development near the stations will help the area evolve from a traffic-strangled mess to a series of walkable urban neighborhoods..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...sjP_story.html

[babybackribs2314]

It's crazy how many buildings are about to begin construction (probably 10 or so within the next 6 months?), but I still think the scope of the residential component needs to be larger. A four-building complex with less than 700 units? That's not all that impressive.

Developers should have no max on residential FAR in Tysons; that would really speed up the process, and provide critical mass for suburb-->city much more quickly. The first key things to look for (IMO) are an active pedestrian presence after 6PM (let alone at all...) as well as the emergence of 24-hour delis/stores. An underrated method IMO, as an area isn't truly walkable unless you have something always open within a very short walking distance.

[TysonsEngineer]

The Westpark Drive development is a nice change, regardless of its short comings. I live down the street and have to go by these 2 story buildings that are a waste of the land they sit on (land that if Lerners price tells you anything) is worth upwards of 50-60 million dollars. I agree that 700 units out of 4 buildings is extremely small. By comparison the 6-story Avalon Park Crest has 400+ (mostly because it is annoyingly wide at the bottom).

So I previously posted about a cost estimate assumption. I spent this week developing it to fully understand the economics behind these projects. It goes to the point that all parties gain benefit from taller buildings. Even 40-50 stories begins to minimalize the land costs of 10 million dollars per acre. We should be seeing 400 or 500 unit buildings not projects. Take a look at http://thetysonscorner.com/blog/?p=488

I would post it here instead but its a fairly complex posting. If anyone wants to replicate it here feel free to. I realllllly hope that someone comes to some kind of an agreement for atleast a push on unlimited residential above the 40th floor.

[202_Cyclist]

I don't think I'll be able to attend this because it is the same time as the annual Transportation Research Board conference but this event looks interesting. The National Building Museum is also a pretty impressive building.

Tysons Corner: A Smart Growth Model?!?

January 25, 2012 6:30 - 8:00 pm

Program Series
D.C. Builds

"Tysons Corner, Virginia, is in the process of reinventing itself into a walkable, sustainable urban center. The Tysons Corner Task Force has recommended compact development near four planned Metro stations, mixed-use residential and commercial neighborhoods, green building requirements, major reductions in stormwater runoff, affordable and workforce housing, and a pedestrian- and bicycle-friendly street design to reduce traffic. Panelists discuss what it will take to implement these recommendations."

Panelists:

Matt Ladd, AICP, senior planner Fairfax County Department of Planning & Zoning
David T. Haresign, AIA Bonstra | Haresign ARCHITECTS
Stewart Schwartz, executive director, Coalition for Smarter Growth

Continuing Education Credits: 1.5 LU HSW-SD (AIA) / 1.5 CM (AICP) / 1.5 LA CES (ASLA)


Members: $12
Students: $12
Public: $20

Purchase Tickets
Special Instructions: Prepaid registration required. Walk-in registration based on availability.

http://www.nbm.org/programs-lectures...rt-growth.html

[babybackribs2314]

Originally Posted by TysonsEngineer

The Westpark Drive development is a nice change, regardless of its short comings. I live down the street and have to go by these 2 story buildings that are a waste of the land they sit on (land that if Lerners price tells you anything) is worth upwards of 50-60 million dollars. I agree that 700 units out of 4 buildings is extremely small. By comparison the 6-story Avalon Park Crest has 400+ (mostly because it is annoyingly wide at the bottom).

So I previously posted about a cost estimate assumption. I spent this week developing it to fully understand the economics behind these projects. It goes to the point that all parties gain benefit from taller buildings. Even 40-50 stories begins to minimalize the land costs of 10 million dollars per acre. We should be seeing 400 or 500 unit buildings not projects. Take a look at http://thetysonscorner.com/blog/?p=488

I would post it here instead but its a fairly complex posting. If anyone wants to replicate it here feel free to. I realllllly hope that someone comes to some kind of an agreement for atleast a push on unlimited residential above the 40th floor.

That's what I think they should do; allow office up to 30-40 floors, then residential and ONLY residential above that. I think 30 would be a better # than 40 (or even 25) as there isn't a huge need for office buildings that tall, and if we did see several huge projects go up at once the 'infill' that makes a place truly urban could take much longer to develop.

Residents would have two major benefits--views and QUIET. Placing residential so far above the street level would ensure most of the noise doesn't reach where people actually live, which is a major plus.

[202_Cyclist]

I rode my bike out to Reston (admittedly not Tysons) this past weekend and it looks like construction has begun on the Block 16 parcel, located next to the Rolls Royce bulding at the Reston Town Center.


Image courtesy of Asadoorian Retail Solutions: http://www.asaretail.com/properties/...n-town-center#

Here is a description of the development:
Lend Lease Selected by Boston Properties to Provide Construction Management Services for New Luxury Residential Building
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...137011418.html