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  #221  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 12:48 AM
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dleung dleung is online now
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Portland got this for $57 million. The distance is less than half of what we're dealing with here, and there's only 2 cars, but man it looks nice:


http://image.architonic.com/

Even their cabins look a hell of a lot better than the P2P ones

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2384/...8a0cd08b55.jpg

I hope we don't end up with ugly transmission-tower type pylons

http://www.ultimate-ski.com/

Last edited by dleung; Oct 5, 2010 at 7:54 PM.
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  #222  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 3:58 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Of interest - note that there are 5 parts to the story:

http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/13...-introduction/
Check out this link I posted a while back - I think any system that is installed would be very much like the one shown here.


The Rheinseilbahn in Koblenz, Germany.
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/13...-introduction/


The Urban Concept Vehicle.
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/14...-the-vehicles/


The engine room seen from the front and side.
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/15...rt-3-stations/


These transit towers blend poorly into the surrounding green park setting.
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/16...part-4-towers/

http://gondolaproject.com/2010/09/17...5-conclusions/
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  #223  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 4:37 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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@dleung, I used to also prefer large aerial trams like the PAT, but reading the Gondola Project website makes me think "meh... maybe it's not as efficient as we'd want it to be".

The problem with the aerial tram type is the fact that there are only two cars at the least... and each can only hold so many people (max so far is 200 in a double-decker tram) per trip... and each round trip (including loading times of two minutes and one-way travel time of 8 minutes) may take up to twenty minutes. Based on observations at Production Way station, this is not sufficient for carrying the hundreds of students that have morning classes within the span of one hour (and it's not reasonable to ask some students to get up earlier than six).

As for towers and stations, it's really hard to say whether we'll even get a nice design. The PAT incurred huge cost overruns during the construction phase... something that, if it happened here, would spark tremendous outrage from NIMBYs and others who want transit in their own places. Having said that, if there are economical yet effective ways of making things nicer, I'd take that any day over something that's purely utilitarian and boxy. Of course, the budget issues at TransLink may tell a different story.
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  #224  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
The problem with the aerial tram type is the fact that there are only two cars at the least... and each can only hold so many people (max so far is 200 in a double-decker tram) per trip... and each round trip (including loading times of two minutes and one-way travel time of 8 minutes) may take up to twenty minutes. Based on observations at Production Way station, this is not sufficient for carrying the hundreds of students that have morning classes within the span of one hour (and it's not reasonable to ask some students to get up earlier than six).
Huh? That's like saying the bus round trip is 40 minutes and so its not sufficient. If the round trip is 20 minutes, you simply just have 10 trams at 2 minute intervals, problem solved. Assuming each tram car can handle 100 people with 3 round trips per tram-car for a total of 30 round trips, that's 3000 people per hour per direction.

Even if there was only 2 100-person cars at 10 minute intervals, that's 6 round trips or 600 people per hour per direction. With 200 person cars, that's 1200 people per hour.

So the question becomes how many students take the bus up to SFU?
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  #225  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 5:45 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Note: If you're wondering where I'm getting these stats from, I'm using the school's info and registration system.

An example of some of the enrollments for the larger lectures:
329 in MATH100
164 in MATH150
296 in MATH151
237 in MATH152
436 in MATH154

This is only for the undergraduate math lectures... and all of these courses happen every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

The system search also turned up roughly 84 other classes scattered around various Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings. Capacity for each of those varies from 20 to 40 since most of them are tutorials... although I did spot some lectures with higher capacities.

EDIT: I realize you are mixing up the terms gondola and aerial tram. I advise that you read the Gondola Project as they have good descriptions of the technologies (which are quite different btw). I should note that I do not oppose a gondola system but have some skepticism over an aerial tram system.

Last edited by Millennium2002; Oct 3, 2010 at 6:10 AM.
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  #226  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2010, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Note: If you're wondering where I'm getting these stats from, I'm using the school's info and registration system.

An example of some of the enrollments for the larger lectures:
329 in MATH100
164 in MATH150
296 in MATH151
237 in MATH152
436 in MATH154

This is only for the undergraduate math lectures... and all of these courses happen every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

The system search also turned up roughly 84 other classes scattered around various Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings. Capacity for each of those varies from 20 to 40 since most of them are tutorials... although I did spot some lectures with higher capacities.

EDIT: I realize you are mixing up the terms gondola and aerial tram. I advise that you read the Gondola Project as they have good descriptions of the technologies (which are quite different btw). I should note that I do not oppose a gondola system but have some skepticism over an aerial tram system.
Ah ic. Thanks for the enlightenment. You also meant in your previous post, "2 cars at the most"(not least).

Here's a snippet from translink's initial feasibility study
Quote:
Analyses of ridership volumes indicate that at current ridership levels, the peak hourly demand for the gondola is 2,089 people per hour (pph). At minimum, this demand is expected to increase to 2,681 pph and at maximum to 3,762 pph (each figure is possible by the OPC horizon of 2030). It is suggested that an initial gondola capacity of 2,000 pph be provided with an option to increase capacity to 2,800 pph at a later date by adding additional cabins. The travel time from Production Way to the Transit Loop is estimated at 6 minutes. Together with the maximum projected wait time of 6 minutes during peak travel times, the overall gondola travel time would be less when compared to the 14 minutes (exclusive of waiting and loading times) travel time of the current bus route 145.
Ok found translink bus ridership #'s in the study. 52%(145 - 11,799 daily ridership) use production way, 27% use hastings(135 - 6,126 daily ridership), 12% from coquitlam station(143 - 2,723 daily ridership) and the other 9% (144 - 2,042 daily ridership). Not sure if these are boardings or riders, but my guess is boardings. And my guess is, if the gondola has high enough capacity people will shift to taking a bus to the skytrain and over to Production Way, instead of taking the 135 or other buses up the hill(or translink will alter bus routes and reduce 135 to encourage such travel). So roughly ~23,000 daily boardings or ~11,500 people going up and coming back down(or vice versa) on transit. But not all will have 9am classes every day.
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  #227  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2010, 7:23 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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The Grouse Mountain Skyride carries:

Super Skyride Red 100 + 1 operator each way. Trip length 4-8 minutes depending on how fast they run it.
Skyride Blue 40 + 1 operator each way. Trip length 6-10 minutes (I believe)
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  #228  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2010, 11:55 PM
amor de cosmos amor de cosmos is offline
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this guy likes the idea (surprise!)
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/10/05...rnaby-gondola/
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  #229  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 12:35 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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bingo! xD

I love his article... not to mention the fact that he also has researched and understands the 'little' funding and political mess that we're in.

Now if this will be the spark plug of the fast-tracking of this project... that I'm not sure of... but I hope this gets attention soon. ^^
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  #230  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Portland got this for $57 million. The distance is less than half of what we're dealing with here, and there's only 2 cars, but man it looks nice:


http://image.architonic.com/
went to use the Portland one once but its not part of the system you have to pay separately and they would only take credit cards at the machine - so could only look at it

adding: they did take quarters but not bills and no other coins - so we couldn't find any place to get $4 worth of quarters for two people... the one place we thought of had a sign saying something to the effect if "we do not provide quarters for the tram"

and there isn't much in that development at the base of the tram - there is a medical centre with a small coffee place we walked all over and that was about it
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Last edited by SpongeG; Oct 6, 2010 at 12:56 AM.
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  #231  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 1:01 AM
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What IS the difference between a gondola and a tram, anyway?
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  #232  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 1:09 AM
CLC CLC is offline
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Originally Posted by amor de cosmos View Post
this guy likes the idea (surprise!)
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/10/05...rnaby-gondola/
Not a surprise , there is conflict of interests (arguably) of what business this Canadian author is in
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  #233  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 3:41 AM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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Originally Posted by GeeCee View Post
What IS the difference between a gondola and a tram, anyway?
Apparently gondolas are detachable, trams are not.
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/04/24...-aerial-trams/
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  #234  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 4:11 AM
amor de cosmos amor de cosmos is offline
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Not a surprise , there is conflict of interests (arguably) of what business this Canadian author is in
or that he writes a blog about gondolas or aerial trams!
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  #235  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 7:22 PM
lightrail lightrail is offline
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Originally Posted by madmigs View Post
Huh? That's like saying the bus round trip is 40 minutes and so its not sufficient. If the round trip is 20 minutes, you simply just have 10 trams at 2 minute intervals, problem solved. Assuming each tram car can handle 100 people with 3 round trips per tram-car for a total of 30 round trips, that's 3000 people per hour per direction.

Even if there was only 2 100-person cars at 10 minute intervals, that's 6 round trips or 600 people per hour per direction. With 200 person cars, that's 1200 people per hour.

So the question becomes how many students take the bus up to SFU?
But the problem with aerial trams is there can only be two - one on each cable. So that limits your frequency.

A gondola system allows you add more cars to it (which is how most ski resort lifts work including peak to peak) - but gondolas tend to be smaller out of necessity - only so much weight can be added to the cable.

I prefer a gondola system using large gondolas, such as the 22 passenger peak to peak cars.
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  #236  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 8:13 PM
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I could be wrong here.

But aren't aerial trams. Designed so that the cars when they get to the top don't loop around. And they stay on the same side the entire time. Which is why you can only ever have two cars. One on left side the other on the right side. And they are designed to move in the opposite direction to each other.

While a gondola is setup to loop at the ends. Thus allowing you to add more cars dependent on weight capacity of the cables and towers. And they can run in a continous motion. Whether that is clockwise or counter clockwise.

I'd prefer the gondola style. Even though the capacity of the cars is less than a tram. They provide a higher frequency.
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  #237  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 10:09 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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^Correct, aerial trams are only limited to one tram/car per cable.
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  #238  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2010, 11:09 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
I could be wrong here.

But aren't aerial trams. Designed so that the cars when they get to the top don't loop around. And they stay on the same side the entire time. Which is why you can only ever have two cars. One on left side the other on the right side. And they are designed to move in the opposite direction to each other.

While a gondola is setup to loop at the ends. Thus allowing you to add more cars dependent on weight capacity of the cables and towers. And they can run in a continous motion. Whether that is clockwise or counter clockwise.

I'd prefer the gondola style. Even though the capacity of the cars is less than a tram. They provide a higher frequency.
Gondolas reduce the transfer time as waiting at stations are limited. If you had 5 cars of 20 person capacity for 1 aerial tram of 100 people waiting/transfer time is 1/5. Seems to make a lot more sense in shortening transit trips.
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  #239  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2010, 8:29 AM
cabotp cabotp is offline
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Gondolas reduce the transfer time as waiting at stations are limited. If you had 5 cars of 20 person capacity for 1 aerial tram of 100 people waiting/transfer time is 1/5. Seems to make a lot more sense in shortening transit trips.
I realized that. Which is why I stated that gondolas provide a higher frequency. Less time between each car. With less time between each car there is less of a wait. Of course if the lineup gets long enough then there would be a wait to get onto a car that someone could fit on.
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  #240  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2010, 5:41 AM
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7 replies! Looks like a lot of companies are interested in doing the business case study.

Quote:
TransLink pondering several SFU gondola proposals
By Frank Luba, The Province October 12, 2010

TransLink had seven replies in hand by Tuesday’s deadline for companies willing to study the business case for an aerial gondola to replace bus service to Simon Fraser University.

TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said a winner could be picked by Friday. But he cautioned that the decision is strictly about a business case for the service.

“This is to see if it’s worth building,” said Hardie.

The idea for a gondola came from the Simon Fraser University Community Trust, which funded an initial feasibility study that came out in April of 2009.

The study focused on a 2.6-kilometre route up Burnaby Mountain from the Production Way-University SkyTrain station to Town Square, which is adjacent to the transit loop on the SFU campus.

Such a service would be faster than buses and not as susceptible to delays caused by snow or ice.

fluba@theprovince.com
© Copyright (c) The Province
Source: http://www.theprovince.com/TransLink...#ixzz12DMeUmYv
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