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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 12:02 AM
EdFromOttawa EdFromOttawa is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
[B]Pro sports can't, and shouldn't, depend on government ticket sales

We don’t have the luxury in Ottawa. We have to rely on individual ticket sales more than most cities, and those sales are fickle. So why do we keep pretending we’re a different kind of town?

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I think it's totally and completely cultural. This city has seen more sports franchises fold in the past 2 decades than I care to count.... The Renegades, the Roughriders, 3 baseball teams...hell even the 67s and Senators were on the rocks for a few years (Sens nearly skipped town if not for the swift actions of the NHL). Mention these things and you'll hear a million excuses related to ownership stadium whatever, but the bottom line is people wouldn't go and that was a problem.

In my personal experience the fans here are absurdly fickle to the point of pig-headedness.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the words "yah I'd buy tickets but they suck this year" or "ever since Alfie left I don't go to games"...or the worst, "The Redblacks name is stupid I'm not going". People are already starting to make jokes about the Redblacks folding after a bad first season.....1 season. The Sens have ranked last place amongst Canadian NHL teams in average attendance year after year...despite having a larger pop than Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton etc...

What the actual eff? There is no pride for pro sports in this city and very little real loyalty to the teams. Habs and Leafs fans rightfully laugh at us.

For a city with such precious little experience with pro sports teams at the top level, it's insane how much of that attention requires winning......
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 12:03 AM
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Do the Sens have it tough here in Ottawa?

Vito Pilieci, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: September 17, 2014, Last Updated: September 17, 2014 7:35 PM EDT


There have long been rumblings when it comes to the difficulties of operating a major sports franchise in Ottawa.

The latest came this week from Ottawa Senators’ owner Eugene Melnyk, who told Toronto’s Sportsnet 590, “We’ve got a tough job to make hockey work in Ottawa, but we’re trying to make it work.”

“We are a very regional market,” he added. “Our biggest employer (the federal government) can’t buy tickets, nor can they buy tickets or give tickets. The number two biggest employer is the city and they can’t buy tickets or give tickets. We’re number 29 out of 30 (in the NHL) in corporate opportunities, and it’s not easy.”

Melnyk’s comments reflect concerns raised earlier this year in a report by the Conference Board of Canada. The report, called Power Play: The Business Economics of Pro Sports, described the long-term success of the Ottawa Senators as being “favourable” but said due to the market, the team will face challenges in raising revenues.

“The Ottawa sports market is smaller than in many other Canadian cities,” said Glen Hodgson, the conference board’s senior vice-president and chief economist, in the report. “It has a smaller corporate sector and many fewer head offices than a city of comparable size like Calgary. This puts added pressure on team ownership and management to put a quality product on the rink or field.”

The Ottawa Senators are ranked 15th in the National Hockey League when it comes to valuation, according to business and financial magazine Forbes. The magazine, which produces an annual ranking of sports franchises and their value, said the Senators are currently valued at $380 million and annually draw more than $83 million in revenues. The team owns the arena (Canadian Tire Place) it plays in.

The Senators have a payroll of $54.345 million, which places it 28th out of 30 teams in the league in terms of what it spends on players.

Former team owner Rod Bryden expressed his own concerns more than a decade ago while facing serious financial struggles with the Senators. In a news conference at that time Byrden said, “What this city needs to do is fill the building” adding, “If we can’t sell the tickets, this team will have to go.”


So really, what makes things challenging for the Senators in Ottawa? Here are a few examples:

Corporate Sponsorships

- Ottawa has lost all the Nortel Networks, JDS Uniphases and Corel Corps. that once plastered their name over the building, and no new mega corporations have emerged to pick up those sponsorships, which is why the team is almost dead last in the NHL when it comes to attracting corporate cash. While Ottawa’s once vibrant technology industry is beginning to bustle again, the small and medium sized startups that make up that industry aren’t spending on the Sens, instead they are focusing their marketing budgets and corporate spending on things that have a more immediate impact on their business.

Government restrictions

- In Ottawa, the largest employers are the federal, provincial and municipal governments. All of those organizations have policies in place aimed at cutting down on anything that could be perceived as a bribe, and that includes hockey tickets. Employees in the public sector are not allowed to receive hockey tickets from a private company. As a result, the shortage of corporate sponsorships becomes worse for the Senators as Ottawa-based businesses looking to woo government clients see little value in buying season tickets. Former Senators owner Rod Bryden has said government ticket policies have cost the team about $1 million a season in revenue.

Location of the stadium

- When it was first opened in 1996 in the middle of a rural area far in the west-end of the city, critics lamented the distance between what is now Canadian Tire Place and downtown Ottawa. While there is now development happening around the building — a major outlet mall is scheduled to open across the street next month and housing development in Kanata North is finally reaching a fever pitch — there is still no denying that travelling to the arena marks a significant trip for many Ottawa residents. Having an arena downtown, where the likelihood of walk-up business is far higher, would help with single-game ticket sales.

Tough days of the ice

- Any team that wants to attract ticket sales and increase revenues needs to be competitive. Prior to the 2013-2014 season, the Senators lost their long-term captain and one of the team’s most popular players, Daniel Alfredsson. The team then skated through a sub-par season that left fans frustrated. It also left the team without its newly minted captain, Jason Spezza, who was traded to Dallas. The all-time high for Senators’ season-ticket sales was 13,500, which came in 2007-08, immediately following the Senators’ run to the Stanley Cup final.

Carrying Costs

- As opposed to billionaires sports team owners such as Steve Ballmer, who can drop $2 billion US on a sports franchise, or giant corporations such as Rogers Communications and Bell Media, who hold joint ownership of the NHL’s most profitable franchise, the Toronto Maple Leafs, Melnyk has more finite resources behind him. In 2011, Melnyk was carrying $130 million in debt — held by a syndicate of banks. He renegotiated the terms of that debt with another consortium of backers and in 2013 he managed to piece together a four-year deal that would see $150 million in fresh financing flow into the organization. For a team that Forbes values at around $380 million, although other estimates put it lower than that, a $150-million investment is a significant financial commitment.

Vpilieci@ottawacitizen.com
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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...here-in-ottawa
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 12:59 AM
canabiz canabiz is offline
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This article was frustrating to read after Melnyk just cashed in on not 1 but 2 major media contracts. A local one with TSN and his part of the Rogers national deal.

Melnyk just doesn't have the unlimited funds anymore and it's this reason more than any why we are hearing him say this.

That being said, while attendance is very good, the biggest complaint I hear is location. I agree that Ottawans are somewhat frugal, but the traffic is by far the biggest reason I hear for not going.

A casino next to the CTC would have solidified the franchise, and its advertising and corporate revenue streams. The 2 businesses are so complimentary. Hitting the casino and betting on the sens game then going to watch it live would appeal to many.

Sadly, melnyk and Watson have been fighting and I think a lot of it had to do with Landsdowne though this is never publicly stated.
This is still illegal in this day and age! OLG allows you to bet on sports but it has to be a parlay (not straight wagers). I know they let casino patrons play Pro-Line in Niagara and Windsor but it has not come to the Rideau Carleton Raceway yet.

It'd be nice to see Loto-Quebec offer sports wagering at the Casino du Lac Leamy but I digress...Agree with your other points.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 1:42 AM
EdFromOttawa EdFromOttawa is offline
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This is still illegal in this day and age! OLG allows you to bet on sports but it has to be a parlay (not straight wagers). I know they let casino patrons play Pro-Line in Niagara and Windsor but it has not come to the Rideau Carleton Raceway yet.

It'd be nice to see Loto-Quebec offer sports wagering at the Casino du Lac Leamy but I digress...Agree with your other points.
Like night and day in Europe.

In London there's a William Hill (small kinda mini casino for sports betting mainly) on every single street corner.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 2:44 AM
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Like night and day in Europe.

In London there's a William Hill (small kinda mini casino for sports betting mainly) on every single street corner.
Yes we are still way back behind the times

I believe the bill to allow single game wagering is at the Senate but has not been passed. The government probably has other priorities. The OLG is also undergoing a modernization project where they may offer sports lottery online, similar to what ALC (Atlantic Lottery Corp.) and BCLC (British Columbia Lottery Corp.) are doing right now.

I think the government should pass the bill to allow single game wagering and to offer them at casinos and racetracks. That will draw a significant number of American tourists. The big (if not the only) reason why the NFL is such a popular and profitable sports league is simply because of the gambling angle. The average sports fans wants to put some $ on their favorite teams while watching the game for more entertainment and who are we to say no...sorry to go a bit off topic, this is something near and dear to my heart as a ProLine player for almost 20 years
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa View Post
Do you have figures to back this up? I've heard Ottawa is the only Canadian team to lose money year after year. They DID go bankrupt in 2003 after all...
It's not possible to get figures as they are not a publicly traded company. What we do have is Forbes estimates, which have consistently shown that the team is profitable. And that was before it had the benefit of much more lucrative national and regional broadcast contracts.

Also, the value of the franchise has consistently risen over the past 10 years, which is at least indicative of the ability to make money. So the best information available suggests they are profitable.

Technically speaking, the team was not actually bankrupt in 2003. It went through a reorganization to facilitate a sale.
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa View Post
I think it's totally and completely cultural. This city has seen more sports franchises fold in the past 2 decades than I care to count.... The Renegades, the Roughriders, 3 baseball teams...hell even the 67s and Senators were on the rocks for a few years (Sens nearly skipped town if not for the swift actions of the NHL). Mention these things and you'll hear a million excuses related to ownership stadium whatever, but the bottom line is people wouldn't go and that was a problem.

In my personal experience the fans here are absurdly fickle to the point of pig-headedness.

I can't tell you the number of times I've heard the words "yah I'd buy tickets but they suck this year" or "ever since Alfie left I don't go to games"...or the worst, "The Redblacks name is stupid I'm not going". People are already starting to make jokes about the Redblacks folding after a bad first season.....1 season. The Sens have ranked last place amongst Canadian NHL teams in average attendance year after year...despite having a larger pop than Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton etc...

What the actual eff? There is no pride for pro sports in this city and very little real loyalty to the teams. Habs and Leafs fans rightfully laugh at us.

For a city with such precious little experience with pro sports teams at the top level, it's insane how much of that attention requires winning......
Not sure where you are getting your information. The Sens consistently rank ahead of Winnipeg and Edmonton in attendance, and they have often been ahead of Vancouver and Calgary. And when were the 67s on the rocks? For at least a couple of decades they have been near the top of OHL attendance. The Redblacks have sold out every game this year.

I think if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that fans are fickle everywhere. Go back to the 90s and you'll find that Vancouver had significant attendance issues and Calgary even curtained off their upper deck because of declining attendance. Montreal had issues filling the Bell Centre when they had several years of poor teams. And heck, when I lived in Toronto and the Leafs were their usual poor selves, despite their claims of sell-outs, I never had any issue getting tickets to 5 or 6 games a year, which I bought at the box office.

These articles are bang on. The corporate ticket base is absolutely essential to keeping attendance high during stretches of poor team performance. One look at the ACC on a Tuesday night in February should give you the idea. The Leafs are announcing a sell-out, but there sure aren't 18,000 actual people in the building. That's because the seats are largely season tickets owned by corporations.

Individual ticket sales are strongly co-related to team wins, and that is the case everywhere, not just in Ottawa.

Last edited by phil235; Sep 18, 2014 at 3:30 AM.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 2:40 PM
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Not sure where you are getting your information. The Sens consistently rank ahead of Winnipeg and Edmonton in attendance, and they have often been ahead of Vancouver and Calgary.
Keep in mind that Winnipeg and Edmonton have smaller rinks than Ottawa.

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And when were the 67s on the rocks? For at least a couple of decades they have been near the top of OHL attendance.
Before Jeff Hunt bought the team, they did not draw nearly as well. Even before the Senators, they were not a big draw. I remember in the late '80s being able to get excellent seats as a walk-up, and the crowds were only a couple of thousand a night. Once the Sens came into town it was assumed that they would pack up and move elsewhere as nobody thought an OHL team could survive competing against the NHL. Hunt really made the games an event and built the franchise to the level that it reached now.

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The Redblacks have sold out every game this year.
Hopefully Hunt will be able to keep that trend going with smart marketing, and that Desjardins can build a strong team and eventually/sooner rather than later have a team to contend. Something no pro football team has done in Ottawa since the late '70s.

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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
I think if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that fans are fickle everywhere. Go back to the 90s and you'll find that Vancouver had significant attendance issues and Calgary even curtained off their upper deck because of declining attendance. Montreal had issues filling the Bell Centre when they had several years of poor teams. And heck, when I lived in Toronto and the Leafs were their usual poor selves, despite their claims of sell-outs, I never had any issue getting tickets to 5 or 6 games a year, which I bought at the box office.
This is a valid point. When teams do poorly, attendance tends to wane. And especially in the case of football, Ottawa has had more than its share of poor teams.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa View Post
Do you have figures to back this up? I've heard Ottawa is the only Canadian team to lose money year after year. They DID go bankrupt in 2003 after all...
Is this just hearsay? Can you provide figures? Let's remember that Ottawa is a hotbed of self-loathing.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 3:21 PM
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The problem with an NHL team too is a rising salary cap which looks like it will eventually become a pointlessly high number, shuts out smaller market teams from competing with the heavy weights in Toronto, Montreal, Chicago etc.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 3:28 PM
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Once this super HOV highway to the Sens is open with it's extreme flow-though awesomeness, will more people (persons) hop in their car to catch a game?
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 4:27 PM
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Probably not. It's still a pain in the ass as the parking lot takes forever to get into and out of.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 5:03 PM
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Keep in mind that Winnipeg and Edmonton have smaller rinks than Ottawa.
Very true. I was just responding to the comment that Ottawa trailed those teams in attendance "year after year". In terms of revenue, I think Ottawa is usually listed ahead of Winnipeg and in the same mid-revenue range as Edmonton and Calgary.

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Before Jeff Hunt bought the team, they did not draw nearly as well. Even before the Senators, they were not a big draw. I remember in the late '80s being able to get excellent seats as a walk-up, and the crowds were only a couple of thousand a night. Once the Sens came into town it was assumed that they would pack up and move elsewhere as nobody thought an OHL team could survive competing against the NHL. Hunt really made the games an event and built the franchise to the level that it reached now.
This is definitely true. Hunt significantly increased attendance after he bought the team, and attendance has been good to great over those 15 years.

I believe that before that they would hover in the 2-3000 range, with peaks for good teams. That wasn't too bad for that era, as OHL attendance was generally lower than it is now, and there were a lot of franchises that moved. From my recollection, Kitchener, which is one of the strongest franchises in the league and now sells out every game, was in the 3500-4000 range in the early 90s. The increases started after that.

I've followed the OHL for a lot of years and Ottawa has been a strong franchise for as long as I can remember.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 5:39 PM
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Once this super HOV highway to the Sens is open with it's extreme flow-though awesomeness, will more people (persons) hop in their car to catch a game?
Most people go to games in groups of at least two so an HOV lane wont provide much relief on game days.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 6:14 PM
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Once this super HOV highway to the Sens is open with it's extreme flow-though awesomeness, will more people (persons) hop in their car to catch a game?
Maybe, but the absolute worst thing about driving to the CTC is exiting the parking lot after the game.

The new bus ramp opened last year makes this so much faster on the bus that I don't know why more people don't bus it (even if just to a nearby Park & Ride).
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 6:23 PM
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Maybe, but the absolute worst thing about driving to the CTC is exiting the parking lot after the game.

The new bus ramp opened last year makes this so much faster on the bus that I don't know why more people don't bus it (even if just to a nearby Park & Ride).
The bus was always faster on the way out, and now it is way faster. A couple of times last year I was back downtown and at home 25 minutes after the game ended.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 6:45 PM
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The Sen's team value is smack down in the middle of the pack at number 15. If we're losing money, does that mean that the bottom 14 are loosing even more?

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 7:21 PM
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The Sen's team value is smack down in the middle of the pack at number 15. If we're losing money, does that mean that the bottom 14 are loosing even more?

http://www.forbes.com/teams/ottawa-senators/
Those Forbes estimates include revenue and profit estimates. For that year, Forbes estimated that the Sens, including the arena, made $7 million.

Perhaps more importantly, since that time, new broadcast deals have been signed which will bring in up to $40 million per year, which is more than double what they were getting under the previous deals. That's why any claims that the team is losing money are dubious at best.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/01/29/...e-for-practice

"As first reported by the Ottawa Sun Wednesday, the Senators have signed a monumental 12-year agreement regional broadcast agreement for radio and TV with Bell Media that league sources confirmed could be worth up to $400 million when it expires in 2025-26.Coupled with the $16 million the Senators will receive from the new national package that the NHL signed with Sportsnet in December, the club could get more than $40 million from broadcast revenues along next season."
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 11:16 PM
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Those Forbes estimates include revenue and profit estimates. For that year, Forbes estimated that the Sens, including the arena, made $7 million.

Perhaps more importantly, since that time, new broadcast deals have been signed which will bring in up to $40 million per year, which is more than double what they were getting under the previous deals. That's why any claims that the team is losing money are dubious at best.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/01/29/...e-for-practice

"As first reported by the Ottawa Sun Wednesday, the Senators have signed a monumental 12-year agreement regional broadcast agreement for radio and TV with Bell Media that league sources confirmed could be worth up to $400 million when it expires in 2025-26.Coupled with the $16 million the Senators will receive from the new national package that the NHL signed with Sportsnet in December, the club could get more than $40 million from broadcast revenues along next season."
According to the Forbes article they're carrying 150M in debt, and only get $29M in gate and $40M in TV. Even if they only pay the minimum salary (51M) it is hard to see them making much money after they pay interest on the $150M, the salary bill and all of their other expenses.

The lack of corporate money is certainly a challenge, but I think the biggest problem is they have to lower their prices so much to get tickets sold (compare $53 for the Sens to $83 for the Jets - with a much smaller arena in a smaller city they're still pulling in a bigger gate than the sens).
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2014, 11:40 PM
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According to the Forbes article they're carrying 150M in debt, and only get $29M in gate and $40M in TV. Even if they only pay the minimum salary (51M) it is hard to see them making much money after they pay interest on the $150M, the salary bill and all of their other expenses.

The lack of corporate money is certainly a challenge, but I think the biggest problem is they have to lower their prices so much to get tickets sold (compare $53 for the Sens to $83 for the Jets - with a much smaller arena in a smaller city they're still pulling in a bigger gate than the sens).
The debt is a more complicated question, as it appears to be unrelated to the operations of the team. Melnyk got the team debt-free though the reorganization, and then leveraged the team to support his other ventures.

In any event, if we are relying on the article, it says operating income was 6.8 million, before the TV deals and before they reduced their payroll. That's not too shabby, and it doesn't take into account the massive increase in franchise value.
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