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  #1  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:21 PM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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Dangerous Roads within the Lower Mainland

Figured we could discuss our most feared locations for poorly designed as well as somewhat scary locations to drive within Metro Vancouver and the Fraser Valley.

This accident on the Vedder Canal bridge - which has been described as the worst collision seen in a long time by News 1130 Kim Seale this morning has shut it down indefinitely to all traffic in the westbound direction.

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...ter-off-bridge

Kind of wish the photos provided were a bit higher resoultion.

Anyway, here is my list:
  • Pattullo bridge - narrow lanes, sharp corners
    Highway #1 just north of Ironworkers, sharp covers, steep downgrades
    Vedder Canal bridge - narrow bridge, no shoulders, sharp corner with a design speed of likely 90-100 km/h just west of bridge on approach.
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  #2  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:27 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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Would you like someone to hold your hands while you're driving so you feel safe? Have you ever driven in Seattle and Portland? They have some 'dangerous' freeways as well. Of course roads can always be safer but I think most drivers can adjust their driving habits when they're on an older road design that requires extra attention, that is if they're not texting or driving with a burger in one hand and a drink in the other or falling asleep behind the wheel like the driver of the minivan near Golden.

Vedder Canal Bridge is perfectly safe for anyone capable of driving in a straight line, I've crossed it over a dozen times in the past couple of months with no trouble whatsoever. I hope you don't get a heart attack when I tell you that a similar accident happened back in 2008 at this same bridge.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...3-08ddda34df77

Have you driven the QE2 between Edmonton and Calgary during the winter? It'll change your perspective on what's dangerous.

Oh and I drove on the Patullo Bridge on Saturday, travelling the 50km/h speed limit... slow but perfectly safe. Highway #1 north of the Ironworkers, I love driving through the twisties on that stretch. It makes a boring freeway commute a lot more exciting.
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Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:41 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Surely the Sea-to-Sky Highway ranks right up there, despite all the improvements. Or is it considered a "safe" road now, or NOT part of the Lower Mainland?
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  #4  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:43 PM
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Yeah, the Vedder Canal Bridge is a sub-standard relic from yesteryear and was constructed as part of the Chilliwack Bypass from there eastward circa 1959, prior to the construction of the remaining then Hwy "401" in the west.

Narrow lanes and poor sight-lines, with its vertical curve (as well as the horizontal curve leading up to it), have contributed to many accidents over the years on the Vedder Canal Bridge - no room for driver error. Heading WB on a Monday long-weekend, I've experienced going from 120 km/hr and then coming to a screeching halt just before or on the bridge deck itself on several occasions due to the inferior sight-lines. Surprised that more accidents haven't happened at that locale. That said, until Hwy 1 is 6-laned to Chilliwack, we are stuck with it.

Perhaps cautionary "Poor Visibility" advance warning signs could be put into place during the interim.

Another angle from last night's incident:



Source: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...shColumbiaHome

Another unsafe spot on Hwy 1 is the Capilano River overpass/interchange along the Upper Levels Hwy with no WB on-ramp acceleration lane and a cautionary 60 km/hr EB speed limit at that relatively tight corner. Again, late 1950's sub-standard design.

Too many accidents in that area over the years as well. Just on Monday, another accident involving a dump truck occurred on the sharp EB curve:

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...shColumbiaHome

A new 4-lane WB bridge up-stream (inclusive of an acceleration lane) with improved geometry should do the trick but that's still at least a decade away - as part of continued 6-laning and upgrades.

Last edited by Stingray2004; Aug 17, 2010 at 5:02 PM.
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Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 5:10 PM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Yeah, the Vedder Canal Bridge is a sub-standard relic from yesteryear and was constructed as part of the Chilliwack Bypass from there eastward circa 1959, prior to the construction of the remaining then Hwy "401" in the west.

Narrow lanes and poor sight-lines, with its vertical curve (as well as the horizontal curve leading up to it), have contributed to many accidents over the years on the Vedder Canal Bridge - no room for driver error. Heading WB on a Monday long-weekend, I've experienced going from 120 km/hr and then coming to a screeching halt just before or on the bridge deck itself on several occasions due to the inferior sight-lines. Surprised that more accidents haven't happened at that locale. That said, until Hwy 1 is 6-laned to Chilliwack, we are stuck with it.

Perhaps cautionary "Poor Visibility" advance warning signs could be put into place during the interim.

Another angle from last night's incident:



Source: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...shColumbiaHome
What I don't get is the fact that the alignment just west of the bridge was only put into place approximately 10-12 years ago when that segment was realigned to upgrade it to a full limited-access freeway. Previously, the WB lanes continued straight on before turning towards the south to create a large median between the WB lanes and EB lanes with houses and hobby farms within the "median"

My biggest concern with that bridge actually is travelling EB with the tight turn directly in approach to the bridge, along with the limited visibility looking over the bridge. I've had a few close calls there (I drive it daily) and it just needs a few things:

1) widen the bridge to accommodate proper shoulders at least on the right side.
2) Realign the curve directly west of the bridge so it isn't so harsh.
3) re-grade apporaches so better visiblity on and across the bridge is possible.

Streetview doesn't help illustrate this, mainly because the camera is mounted high above the vehicle - likely a good 5-10 feet above the driver's view (from a car)
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  #6  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02 View Post
Figured we could discuss our most feared locations for poorly designed as well as somewhat scary locations to drive within Metro Vancouver and the Fraser Valley.
I vote Richmond.
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  #7  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 6:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02 View Post
What I don't get is the fact that the alignment just west of the bridge was only put into place approximately 10-12 years ago when that segment was realigned to upgrade it to a full limited-access freeway. Previously, the WB lanes continued straight on before turning towards the south to create a large median between the WB lanes and EB lanes with houses and hobby farms within the "median"
Better to put everything into context. When the entire "401" was completed circa 1964, the freeway ended at Hwy 11. East of there, the only interchange was the Vedder interchange in Chilliwack - the rest of the 4-lane arterial Hwy 1 comprised numerous cross-roads, access/egress points, and even a Tourism BC stopping point in the centre median between Hwy 11 and the Vedder Canal until circa 1985.

During the early/mid 1970's a couple of interchanges were then added - the first two constructed out of steel (Prest and Lickman?). Then in the late 1970's/early 1980's a few more interchanges were constructed and by 1986 the entire route was upgraded to freeway standard.

The only remaining "blip" was the WB lane deflection west of the Vedder Canal, which was the original 2-lane hwy thru the valley. The WB lane cross-section itself was fine but the narrow two-lane bridge with green guard rails and the farmhouse access points were obviously not. Actually, the gravel base for the new WB lanes was already in place for ~1/2 km (from 1964) but had become overgrown with trees and weeds. Don't know why that was not completed back in the day.

That upgrade should also have been completed by 1986 but MoT decided to wait another 10+ years for whatever reason.

Quote:
1) widen the bridge to accommodate proper shoulders at least on the right side.
Could be done I guess by adding additional piers to each structure, but is it worth it?

One of the structures was constructed circa 1959 and the other might even be the original span and hence even older. By the time anything happens here both structures will be at least 60 - 70 years old and near the end of their useful lifespan.

Likely more cost efficient to construct a new 6-lane angled structure slightly downstream with gentler curves in terms of the approaches.
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  #8  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 7:40 PM
vanlaw vanlaw is offline
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Re: Vedder Canal Crossing - I've driven over that many times per year for my whole life, and not once did it occur to me that it felt or looked unsafe.....
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  #9  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Yeah, the Vedder Canal Bridge is a sub-standard relic from yesteryear and was constructed as part of the Chilliwack Bypass from there eastward circa 1959, prior to the construction of the remaining then Hwy "401" in the west.

Narrow lanes and poor sight-lines, with its vertical curve (as well as the horizontal curve leading up to it), have contributed to many accidents over the years on the Vedder Canal Bridge - no room for driver error. Heading WB on a Monday long-weekend, I've experienced going from 120 km/hr and then coming to a screeching halt just before or on the bridge deck itself on several occasions due to the inferior sight-lines. Surprised that more accidents haven't happened at that locale. That said, until Hwy 1 is 6-laned to Chilliwack, we are stuck with it.

Perhaps cautionary "Poor Visibility" advance warning signs could be put into place during the interim.
Well you shouldn't be doing 120km/h considering the speed limit is 100km/h. I'm willing to bet the truck driver was driving too fast.



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Originally Posted by Zegby View Post
Thank god for this thread. I totally agree there are actual portions of roads in the lower mainland region that are downright scary. Like "OMG how is this legal" scary. Let me just start off by saying I think the majority of roads and highways in the lower mainland are scary because a) dividing median barriers aren't tall/big enough b) not enough space in between on-coming lanes, so many times I see rocks fly up from opposing lanes hit cars going the opposite direction.

One of my most feared locations

-Western most portion of route 10. Its the hill at the Surrey end. Trucks barrelling down the road, divided by nothing but a double yellow.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
You must not do any or very little mountain driving. Cause that hill does not scare me at all. In fact it is a mole hill in my opinion.
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  #10  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:40 PM
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The on-ramp from Boundary Road northbound to Highway 1 is the scariest piece of road for me in the Lower Mainland bar none. It has everything going wrong for it:

- there's no merge lane - joining traffic has to merge immediately with almost no chance to find a gap and match speeds

- the entire ramp from where it leaves Boundary to the freeway itself is uphill curves that limit your visibility, maximum speed, and acceleration

- because the on-ramp goes under the highway and the rises up to meet it, there's almost no opportunity to see the traffic that you need to merge with.

All of this results in a very small time window during which you have to be flooring the accelerator, looking back to check the freeway traffic at the same time you're looking forward to make sure someone hasn't stopped just out of sight around the curve on the on ramp.

Scary. As traffic has been steadily increasing over the years I've started avoiding this ramp and now use the one from 1st Avenue instead.
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Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
The on-ramp from Boundary Road northbound to Highway 1 is the scariest piece of road for me in the Lower Mainland bar none. It has everything going wrong for it:

- there's no merge lane - joining traffic has to merge immediately with almost no chance to find a gap and match speeds

- the entire ramp from where it leaves Boundary to the freeway itself is uphill curves that limit your visibility, maximum speed, and acceleration

- because the on-ramp goes under the highway and the rises up to meet it, there's almost no opportunity to see the traffic that you need to merge with.

All of this results in a very small time window during which you have to be flooring the accelerator, looking back to check the freeway traffic at the same time you're looking forward to make sure someone hasn't stopped just out of sight around the curve on the on ramp.

Scary. As traffic has been steadily increasing over the years I've started avoiding this ramp and now use the one from 1st Avenue instead.
Not sure where you are getting off the freeway. If you are getting off at hastings than this wouldn't help.

But considering the area you live in, from what I remember. Have you thought of going down Renfrew to McGill and getting on to Hwy 1 just before the Iron Workers Memorial.
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  #12  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:58 PM
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Well you shouldn't be doing 120km/h considering the speed limit is 100km/h. I'm willing to bet the truck driver was driving too fast.
Operating Speed of Hwy 1 east of the PMB is ~120 km/hr and I've always driven at that operating speed unless conditions warrant otherwise. Preeminent North American traffic engineer Martin Parker of Wade-Trim Engineering has also recommended to MoT that the speed limit be bumped up to 110/km/hr along Hwy 1 east of the PMB.

In fact, BC MoT's monitoring station on Hwy 1 just east of Bradner Road in Abbotsford measures "Annual Average Daily Speed".

For the year 2009:

85th percentile: 126 km/hr - fast/left lane

85th percentile: 114 km/hr - slow/right lane

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficdata/...01-01-2009.pdf

Anyone substantially deviating from those operating speeds is a hazard to traffic flow. Again, in my experience, the problem with the Vedder Canal Bridge are the narrow lanes in conjunction with the poor sight-lines.

Quote:
BCTA President Paul Landry says several major accidents on that bridge in recent years says it is clear something more than driver-error was involved. "It's time to have a close look at road geometry that's been associated with the bridge and so on. If three crashes have occurred on that bridge involving commercial vehicles, I'd say there's a reasonable probability we're going to see more."
http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...fatal-accident
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  #13  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
You must not do any or very little mountain driving. Cause that hill does not scare me at all. In fact it is a mole hill in my opinion.
Besides when I tell people I'm a Vancouver driver, it feels like an accomplishment because of the narrow roads and tight turns that hardly exist in other parts of the country, with a few exceptions like Edmonton's High Level bridge... remember being on that bridge at the age of 5 stuck in traffic and my dad was scaring us "I hope this bridge doesn't collapse from all the weight of these cars" and the approaches on both sides are quite twisty as well.
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Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Surely the Sea-to-Sky Highway ranks right up there, despite all the improvements. Or is it considered a "safe" road now, or NOT part of the Lower Mainland?
Nope, right now it's one of the best maintained and marked roads in the lower mainland. At least to Whistler anyways, the Whistler to Pemby section is pretty beat up, and the Duffy Lake Road has no lines for the most part and no reflectors. The redone section is well divided, has inset thermoplastic lines (rainline if you know them) and for really has no dangerous corners except for a stupid one they screwed the geometry on coming into Brittannia Beach.

Outstanding spots for me are the kink in Dewdney Trunk Road in Maple Ridge here. You don't see it coming then the road shifts one lane width. Almost put a 2 tonne truck into a pole on that little bit.

The section of 4th Ave. in Vancouver from Burrard to Balsam. There's too many traffic patterns. Busses/Parking Cars/Left Turns/Through Traffic/Ped Lights, it creates a lot of weaving. If there was no parking lane you'd have at least one lane of consistent movement down the centre, but as is it's one of the few places in the city where I get frusterated trying to keep track of the amount of vehicle movements around me.
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Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 11:19 PM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Operating Speed of Hwy 1 east of the PMB is ~120 km/hr and I've always driven at that operating speed unless conditions warrant otherwise. Preeminent North American traffic engineer Martin Parker of Wade-Trim Engineering has also recommended to MoT that the speed limit be bumped up to 110/km/hr along Hwy 1 east of the PMB.

In fact, BC MoT's monitoring station on Hwy 1 just east of Bradner Road in Abbotsford measures "Annual Average Daily Speed".

For the year 2009:

85th percentile: 126 km/hr - fast/left lane

85th percentile: 114 km/hr - slow/right lane

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficdata/...01-01-2009.pdf

Anyone substantially deviating from those operating speeds is a hazard to traffic flow. Again, in my experience, the problem with the Vedder Canal Bridge are the narrow lanes in conjunction with the poor sight-lines.



http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...fatal-accident
Me and you agree on everything in that post.

I drive daily Highway 1 east of the PMB, and honestly, I lock it into 120 km/h on there if i'm in the left lane. That's easily the operating speed, and it jumps a bit when you enter the Sumas Flats.

I've designed a possible diversion of a new safer bridge where I eliminated one corner, and one golf course hole too.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=
104390991790431919848.00048e0d1e36435cfa800

And I noticed theres already a "Restriced Visibility" sign on the approaches of the bridge. Like that does anything.
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  #16  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
Have you thought of going down Renfrew to McGill and getting on to Hwy 1 just before the Iron Workers Memorial.
I often do that - it depends on the mood I'm in and what direction I'm coming from. I also use Nanaimo -> McGill or Rupert -> 1st.
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  #17  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:05 AM
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Highway 1's interchanges with Routes 15, 10 and 13.
Short merges ftw
At least the 15 one is being replaced but they have no plans for the 10 and 13 whatsoever so the poor road design's giong to have to stay I guess
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Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
Highway 1's interchanges with Routes 15, 10 and 13.
Short merges ftw
At least the 15 one is being replaced but they have no plans for the 10 and 13 whatsoever so the poor road design's giong to have to stay I guess
I expect those interchanges to be fixed up as soon as Gateway is done to be honest. Highway 10 is a big problem (especially eastbound) but Highway 13 doesn't really seem to have any issues, although I know it's poorly designed.
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Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 5:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02 View Post
I expect those interchanges to be fixed up as soon as Gateway is done to be honest. Highway 10 is a big problem (especially eastbound) but Highway 13 doesn't really seem to have any issues, although I know it's poorly designed.
The merge lane on eastbound isn't actually that bad, might just be the heavy traffic.
Westbound is a different story.
I rather dislike the Highway 13. Apart from merge lanes already being short, they're like that on both sides. At least there's a short C/D system or the highway would be more dangerous than it already is. Harris Road is a fairly popular shortcut route for those going to Mission.
Speaking of which, those forest curves along Harris road are pretty dangerous. At least there are some pretty decent deflectors over there.
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Old Posted Aug 18, 2010, 6:41 AM
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I would nominate nanaimo at mcgill around the curve and 12th east of kingsway to fraser
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