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View Poll Results: Which should be titled as "King of New York?"
432 Park Avenue 0 0%
Steinway Tower 6 15.79%
30 Hudson Yards 0 0%
Central Park Tower 3 7.89%
The Empire State Building 19 50.00%
One World Trade Center 7 18.42%
Other 3 7.89%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jayden View Post
NYC is undergoing a massive supertall boom at the moment. Arguably, the title as "King of New York" has always been the Empire State Building. One could also argue that the title belonged to the original WTC, or even the new 1WTC.

Below are a list of supertalls making their presence known around the city.

432 Park Avenue
Steinway Tower
Central Park Tower
30 Hudson Yards
One Vanderbilt


Then a plethora of others that are still in the planning stages. Which of these listed, or any others not listed do you feel should hold the title?

P.S. of course this is just a made up title for fun. Chill.
of those on that list I'd say 1 Vanderbilt or 30 Hudson Yards. I don't think a King of New York building would be a residential building, it'd have to be an office building, or at least mixed use.
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 5:10 PM
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the new 1WTC is only the tallest because of the spire/ antenna. It's still shorter then the old WTC, shorter than the Sears and shorter than 432 Park Ave.
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  #23  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 5:21 PM
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I find the Chrysler building to be more stylish than the ESB.
I think it's shorter only because it was slightly earlier...
I watched construction documentaries about both buildings (I wouldn't get enough cause the 1920s/early 30s motion pictures of their construction are so fascinating) and saw both in person on my trips to the US.
Both built by the Michigan automaker cash, if I'm not mistaking, by the way.
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  #24  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
This is probably an unpopular point of view on SSP, but I don't think super-talls have the same cultural relevance today that they enjoyed in decades past. The Empire State Building has been iconic since the days of King Kong. It became the tallest building in the world at a time when that seemed to be something important. It is the one building in NYC that is instantly recognizable to the most people both in the US and abroad. These new super-talls aren't especially recognizable to anybody other than knowledgeable locals or true skyscraper enthusiasts.
Yep. That's pretty much how I feel about it. Of course, to answer the question, it's gotta still be the Empire State Building. Going to New York and not seeing/visiting the Empire State Building would be like going to London, at least for the first time, and not seeing Buckingham Palace. There would be other places and buildings I'd want to see in New York, but I'd almost be inclined to give it a hug. haha

One thing I have noticed in my city whenever some new building is proposed, and it doesn't even matter if it's a new tallest, people simply complain about it. There's no pride or wonder anymore in the average person about architecture or tall buildings in the way there used to be. Nobody marvels at them anymore, except for people like us, of course.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:35 PM
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I find 1WTC to be quite banal for a supertall, and not unlike many others in China. There really isn't much that is remarkable about the building, other than the historical context which produced it.
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  #26  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
To clarify, I'm not saying that 1WTC is iconic only because of its history. That is definitely part of it; but remember, 1WTC is the new tallest building the US, which has to count for something, right? Also, its location makes it a very prominent building anytime the NYC skyline is shown from the NY harbor.

I guess you can argue that 1WTC is recognizable by the masses, but has not achieved iconic status, at least not yet. I'd definitely agree that it's not on the same level as the ESB or the Twin Towers.
That's the thing though... it's really not the new tallest building in the US... never was.

Aside from the rather unispired design, that's another reason it received a lukewarm response... its lack of tallest-building-achieving height. Plopping a TV antenna atop and calling it a spire to "officially" reach 1776 ft. was an exercise in embarrassing and melodramatic generosity.

And I would argue that the new 1WTC is not recognizable by the masses. i think you give the building and the masses too much credit.
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I find 1WTC to be quite banal for a supertall, and not unlike many others in China. There really isn't much that is remarkable about the building, other than the historical context which produced it.
I think it would look great--and better evoke the towers that preceded it--without the hideous spire at the top.

[And I'm not just saying that as a Chicagoan annoyed at losing the Western Hemisphere's tallest title]
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  #28  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Khantilever View Post
I think it would look great--and better evoke the towers that preceded it--without the hideous spire at the top.

[And I'm not just saying that as a Chicagoan annoyed at losing the Western Hemisphere's tallest title]
I don't think people who actually care about this stuff (like us) truly believes 1WTC to be the tallest though.

If they do, they're kidding themselves.

Last edited by pj3000; Apr 12, 2018 at 2:11 PM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:50 PM
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yeah, the craptastic spire is awful. Why did they change it from the original design, which was at least elegant?

I visited NYC this past summer, and I remember feeling very disappointed when I gazed on 1WTC for the first time. Quite banal, with none of the "gravitas" of the original twin towers (which I had the pleasure of visiting 5 times during the eighties and nineties).
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  #30  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
yeah, the craptastic spire is awful. Why did they change it from the original design, which was at least elegant?

I visited NYC this past summer, and I remember feeling very disappointed when I gazed on 1WTC for the first time. Quite banal, with none of the "gravitas" of the original twin towers (which I had the pleasure of visiting 5 times during the eighties and nineties).
A cost-cutting measure, if I remmeber correctly.

Which also supports the half-assed, non-iconic effort put into its design and execution.
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 7:01 PM
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And it's always been interesting that the Sears Tower was officially considered to be the tallest building in the US even though the original 1WTC antenna reached higher altitude than the Sears' antenna did.

Yet, somehow now the Sears Tower is no longer the tallest building in the US because the new 1WTC antenna reaches a higher altitude...
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
And it's always been interesting that the Sears Tower was officially considered to be the tallest building in the US even though the original 1WTC antenna reached higher altitude than the Sears' antenna did.

Yet, somehow now the Sears Tower is no longer the tallest building in the US because the new 1WTC antenna reaches a higher altitude...
The old WTC and the Sears antennae were/are not considered part of the building(s) and can (and had been) changed around where as the new WTC, the spire/ antenna is architecturally considered part of the building's structure.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
The old WTC and the Sears antennae were/are not considered part of the building(s) and can (and had been) changed around where as the new WTC, the spire/ antenna is architecturally considered part of the building's structure.
Right... except for the fact that it is 100% not part of the building's structure... just like the previous 1WTC antenna was not part of the building's structure. Only the new 1WTC broadcast antenna is "permanent"... and was part of the design. It's really such a load of BS... and was totally an emotionally symbolic decision to name it the tallest... and largely because of that, it will never be considered the "king" of the NYC skyline.

The "king" of a skyline doesn't have to be crowned due to a REALLY weak, manufactured technicality decided on by a small group of total nerds.

If they at least stayed true to the design in which it actually looked like a spire, then it would be defensible, but we got nothing more than a 400ft broadcast antenna built on top of the structure.
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Right... except for the fact that it is 100% not part of the building's structure... just like the previous 1WTC antenna was not part of the building's structure. Only the new 1WTC broadcast antenna is "permanent"... and was part of the design. It's really such a load of BS... and was totally an emotionally symbolic decision to name it the tallest.

If they at least stayed true to the design in which it actually looked like a spire, then it would be defensible, but we got nothing more than a 400ft broadcast antenna built on top of the structure.
All true. Esp. the bolded. I would go further with buildings like the Sears Tower that in the ensuing 40+ years, the twin masts have since become synonymous with the tower itself and it would look awkward without them at this point. Same with the JHC. Whether the architects intended it or not, the masts have become part of the buildings' designed over the years and are instantly recognizable as part of them.
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 9:13 PM
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Something interesting I didn't know about the Steinway building, it's supposed to be the skinniest ever built so far.

The tower will become the thinnest skyscraper in the world with a width-to-height ratio of about 1:23.

Here's some (brief) explanation about their ratio, for those who'd be somewhat familiar with physics/mechanics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slenderness_ratio

That's alright. I guess the building is growing in my respect.
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2018, 9:28 PM
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Returning to the original question... I've talked about it before, but the Empire State Building, in my mind, symbolizes New York more than anything else, even the Statue of Liberty. In the general sense, this simply isn't true. The Statue of Liberty, on a general scale, is New York's most famous landmark. But for me, personally, the Empire State Building always captures my attention as I ride the bus or train to New York. I never get tired of looking at it. And no matter how many new buildings surpass it, it's still #1 to me. Architecturally, it's far from my favorite skyscraper in NY. That honor probably goes to 70 Pine Street. But it always keeps my attention. Maybe it's the iconic status. I don't know. Something just draws me in to it.
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 1:00 AM
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The King of New York will always be this:

Empire State Building Towering by Brian Imagawa, on Flickr



The Queen of New York will always be this:


CHRYSLER BUILDING by Gustavo Muleey, on Flickr



And the Guardians of New York will forever be them:

NYC June/ July 2001 (film) by Richard Hayton, on Flickr



I'm glad the skyline is getting taller, but none will never close to any of the above.


This was possibly the most iconic skyline shot in American and world history, at least for me. Nothing will ever come close.


NYC Statue of Liberty and Twin Towers 1979 by Terry from Sydney, on Flickr
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 7:14 AM
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I remember many many years ago on the forum someone posted a thread basically asking this same question, except, without all the other supertalls existing in New York at the time. It was more like observing what was obvious, that New York was a kingdom of skyscrapers, and the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings were king and queen, and the WTC towers were the palace guards.

It's harder for really tall buildings to have setbacks that are meaningful when they're hundreds and hundreds of feet in the air or more. Also, modern architecture's penchant for blue glass isn't exactly ideal for highlighting that there's even a setback there at all since glass offers little contrast unless you actually have different colored glass, which is rare.

Really tall supertalls are sort of boring in that it's pretty much pointless to pay much attention to detail when designing their facades. Supertalls almost have to rely on their silhouette being unique for them to stand at all, besides merely being tall. Without having broad sections of the facades with different colored glass creating vertical lines or even patterns (think Central Bank Hong Kong) then you're not going to have much of an interesting facade. Also, really tall buildings can't be just any shape they want. More important than anything they have to be aerodynamic.

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Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64 View Post
Returning to the original question... I've talked about it before, but the Empire State Building, in my mind, symbolizes New York more than anything else, even the Statue of Liberty. In the general sense, this simply isn't true. The Statue of Liberty, on a general scale, is New York's most famous landmark. But for me, personally, the Empire State Building always captures my attention as I ride the bus or train to New York. I never get tired of looking at it. And no matter how many new buildings surpass it, it's still #1 to me. Architecturally, it's far from my favorite skyscraper in NY. That honor probably goes to 70 Pine Street. But it always keeps my attention. Maybe it's the iconic status. I don't know. Something just draws me in to it.
I think of the Statue of Liberty more as a national symbol. No doubt it's a New York icon, but to me, it's more of a symbol of America than of New York.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 2:14 PM
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I think of the Statue of Liberty more as a national symbol. No doubt it's a New York icon, but to me, it's more of a symbol of America than of New York.
Yeah, the Statue of Liberty might as well be in Jersey.
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2018, 10:01 PM
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I think of the Statue of Liberty more as a national symbol. No doubt it's a New York icon, but to me, it's more of a symbol of America than of New York.
Both. Growing up in NY state, it was a huge part of New York's identity; it was everywhere; plates, advertising, signs, etc. Much bigger in NYC than the rest of the state. Other than patriotic stuff, you rarely see it around here (in Texas).

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Yeah, the Statue of Liberty might as well be in Jersey.
It technically is in New Jersey; Liberty Island is a Manhattan exclave surrounded by Jersey City.
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