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  #81  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2016, 10:57 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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  #82  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2016, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Halton is more desirable than Durham, yes. Oakville is the closest thing Toronto has to the deisrable railroad suburbs of the US. The Durham lakeshore is more industrial and Durham is the most "working class" of the regions. Peel is very mixed. York Region is pretty affluent too.

So yes, the "west is best" does apply in the GTA suburbs.
Peel has a higher percentage of its population employed in blue collar occupations than Durham... and (barely) higher percentage in service sector than Durham.
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  #83  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2016, 12:18 AM
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The best sections of Peel (near the lake) are more desirable than Durham, but Peel has more low income sections too.

There are really four sectors in the GTA though running out of the core: west, northwest, north and east. NW and E are the most working class; hence the more affluent sections overall are sort of wedged between the working class NW. W is southern Etobicoke, most of Mississauga, Oakville etc. NW lies west of the Allen Expressway and takes in Downsview, Rexdale, Woodbridge, Brampton etc; N is the the wealthy Yonge/Bayview corridor, Willowdale, Thornhill, Richmond Hill and the Jewish Bathurst Corridor; E is Scarborough, Markham/Unionville east of the 404 and Pickering/Ajax.

Though I suppose one can slice the GTA three ways as well: west (Etobicoke, Peel, Halton); north (the Yorks); east (Scarborough, Durham).

Last edited by Docere; Dec 18, 2016 at 2:28 AM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2016, 10:30 PM
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In a book of essays about the Ward, one of the chapters mentions Yonge St. as a divide in Toronto in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. St. John's Ward to the west of Yonge was the poorest area of the city and the city's main immigrant reception area, while St. James ward to the east included the then-elite district around Jarvis and Sherbourne.

I also recall that the bias towards the west among ethnic groups was related to this. When Jews and Italians left the Ward, east was either too exclusive (around Jarvis/Sherbourne) or really no better (around the Don River). North was also too exclusive. So west along the Dundas and College streetcar lines was the "natural" direction.

Last edited by Docere; Dec 19, 2016 at 12:26 AM.
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  #85  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
The best sections of Peel (near the lake) are more desirable than Durham, but Peel has more low income sections too.

There are really four sectors in the GTA though running out of the core: west, northwest, north and east. NW and E are the most working class; hence the more affluent sections overall are sort of wedged between the working class NW. W is southern Etobicoke, most of Mississauga, Oakville etc. NW lies west of the Allen Expressway and takes in Downsview, Rexdale, Woodbridge, Brampton etc; N is the the wealthy Yonge/Bayview corridor, Willowdale, Thornhill, Richmond Hill and the Jewish Bathurst Corridor; E is Scarborough, Markham/Unionville east of the 404 and Pickering/Ajax.

Though I suppose one can slice the GTA three ways as well: west (Etobicoke, Peel, Halton); north (the Yorks); east (Scarborough, Durham).
It's does get a little tricky as you're leaving city limits to apply the quadrant model though. Within pre-1950 Toronto in particular, there are very substantial differences in wealth between the quadrants but in the 905 it's much more uniformly middle class.

Woodbridge isn't really less wealthy than Richmond Hill or Thornhill, and seems wealthier on average than Central North York. The Chinese of Milliken, Markham and eastern Richmond Hill often came to Canada with pretty good education levels, and sometimes a fair bit of accumulated wealth, but often brought along elderly relatives that have less of either. They seem to struggle due to the major cultural adjustment including english fluency, but their kids seem to do very well in school and should be quite fluent in english so the next generation will likely be fairly wealthy.

It's not just Durham having fewer blue collar workers than Peel as a whole. But even if you compare individual municipalities and their median or average incomes... ok lets say you exclude Brampton which is somewhat lower-middle class. Durham Region is still higher income than Mississauga, and if you exclude Oshawa, it's higher income by a significant margin.

However, Ajax, Pickering and Whitby are much more less distant bedroom suburbs compared to Mississauga, especially Mississauga south of the 401 and east of the Credit River which is much more mature and integrated into the GTA. That part of Mississauga should be more like Scarborough in some ways, but it seems to be more desirable.

Pickering, Ajax and Whitby also have higher median incomes than Vaughan Richmond Hill and Markham, and except Ajax, also have higher average incomes. Despite that Durham Region has cheaper housing than Peel, and significantly cheaper housing than York. Perhaps it's less about Durham being attractive to the wealthy as unattractive to the poor. York and Peel have better transit, more varied housing options, and better blue collar employment opportunities, partly thanks to better transport connections for trade (airport, railyards, highways).

Meanwhile Halton is far enough from the blue collar employment of Vaughan and Peel that the working class wouldn't want to live there, but the office parks of Mississauga are closer. It has similar housing options to Durham - ie mostly single family - and due to being older, a lot of large lots. Transit for the working class is pretty poor, and is mostly based on commuter rail to downtown Toronto (similar to Durham).
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  #86  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 1:26 AM
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It's does get a little tricky as you're leaving city limits to apply the quadrant model though. Within pre-1950 Toronto in particular, there are very substantial differences in wealth between the quadrants but in the 905 it's much more uniformly middle class.

Woodbridge isn't really less wealthy than Richmond Hill or Thornhill, and seems wealthier on average than Central North York. The Chinese of Milliken, Markham and eastern Richmond Hill often came to Canada with pretty good education levels, and sometimes a fair bit of accumulated wealth, but often brought along elderly relatives that have less of either. They seem to struggle due to the major cultural adjustment including english fluency, but their kids seem to do very well in school and should be quite fluent in english so the next generation will likely be fairly wealthy.

It's not just Durham having fewer blue collar workers than Peel as a whole. But even if you compare individual municipalities and their median or average incomes... ok lets say you exclude Brampton which is somewhat lower-middle class. Durham Region is still higher income than Mississauga, and if you exclude Oshawa, it's higher income by a significant margin.

However, Ajax, Pickering and Whitby are much more less distant bedroom suburbs compared to Mississauga, especially Mississauga south of the 401 and east of the Credit River which is much more mature and integrated into the GTA. That part of Mississauga should be more like Scarborough in some ways, but it seems to be more desirable.

Pickering, Ajax and Whitby also have higher median incomes than Vaughan Richmond Hill and Markham, and except Ajax, also have higher average incomes. Despite that Durham Region has cheaper housing than Peel, and significantly cheaper housing than York. Perhaps it's less about Durham being attractive to the wealthy as unattractive to the poor. York and Peel have better transit, more varied housing options, and better blue collar employment opportunities, partly thanks to better transport connections for trade (airport, railyards, highways).

Meanwhile Halton is far enough from the blue collar employment of Vaughan and Peel that the working class wouldn't want to live there, but the office parks of Mississauga are closer. It has similar housing options to Durham - ie mostly single family - and due to being older, a lot of large lots. Transit for the working class is pretty poor, and is mostly based on commuter rail to downtown Toronto (similar to Durham).
I would agree the 905 is more solidly middle class and the quadrants model makes less sense than in Toronto. The very wealthiest and the poor after all are in 416 mostly.

Woodbridge is pretty affluent but it's also in the traditional NW Italian migration path. Until the 1980s and 1990s, Italians were mostly working class but over the last generation or so they have become increasingly affluent. At the same time, Woodbridge affluence is largely made up of "non-traditional" sources in business, the construction industry, real estate developers etc. not doctors, lawyers and the like.

I think it also makes sense to see York and Peel as more "inner" 905 and Halton and Durham as more "outer 905" in terms of the relationship to Toronto, urban form etc. From that vantage point Halton and Durham is the more relevant comparison (Scarborough in some ways is the eastern counterpart to both Etobicoke and Mississauga in these comparisons).

Durham is home to the better-off "white working class" so to speak (i.e. white people without degrees). It's like Suffolk County on Long Island or something. Incomes are high, but educational attainments and share in professional-managerial occupations aren't really. Only 22% in Durham are university graduates (way below the GTA average), compared to 38% in Halton (York is also 38% and Peel is 32%).
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  #87  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 4:25 AM
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I would agree the 905 is more solidly middle class and the quadrants model makes less sense than in Toronto. The very wealthiest and the poor after all are in 416 mostly.

Woodbridge is pretty affluent but it's also in the traditional NW Italian migration path. Until the 1980s and 1990s, Italians were mostly working class but over the last generation or so they have become increasingly affluent. At the same time, Woodbridge affluence is largely made up of "non-traditional" sources in business, the construction industry, real estate developers etc. not doctors, lawyers and the like.

I think it also makes sense to see York and Peel as more "inner" 905 and Halton and Durham as more "outer 905" in terms of the relationship to Toronto, urban form etc. From that vantage point Halton and Durham is the more relevant comparison (Scarborough in some ways is the eastern counterpart to both Etobicoke and Mississauga in these comparisons).

Durham is home to the better-off "white working class" so to speak (i.e. white people without degrees). It's like Suffolk County on Long Island or something. Incomes are high, but educational attainments and share in professional-managerial occupations aren't really. Only 22% in Durham are university graduates (way below the GTA average), compared to 38% in Halton (York is also 38% and Peel is 32%).
Didn't realize that Durham had such a low % of university graduates. Looks like Oshawa and Clarington have a lower % than any electoral district in Toronto.

Oshawa: 14.05%
Clarington: 16.51%
York West: 17.03%
York South-Weston: 16.88%
Etobicoke North: 22.46%

And even the wealthier parts of Durham have a similar % to Scarborough
Scarborough: 28.25%
Pickering: 27.24%
Ajax: 25.61%
Whitby: 28.42%

Only Hamilton and Brampton on the other side of the GTHA are comparable
Brampton: 24.73%
Hamilton: 22.39%

Every other major western 905 community is 30%+.

<20% seems pretty common for small cities and rural areas in Ontario, but I guess I didn't realize how much Durham had in common with those.

Nonetheless... incomes are higher than you'd expect. Even compared to Vaughan, Pickering, Ajax and Whitby are a little wealthier despite having a significantly lower % of university degrees.
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  #88  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:14 PM
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In some cities, "end" is basically interchangable with "side" (i.e. Toronto) while in others like Vancouver (West End) is a neighborhood (Strathcona was often referred to as the "East End").

The word "end" implies further out or near the limits but often when more narrowly defined it's closer in. In Toronto the "East End" used to mean Cabbagetown and thereabouts. Presumably the West End in earlier times may have been around Little Italy and Trinity Bellwoods today.
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  #89  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
In some cities, "end" is basically interchangable with "side" (i.e. Toronto) while in others like Vancouver (West End) is a neighborhood (Strathcona was often referred to as the "East End").

The word "end" implies further out or near the limits but often when more narrowly defined it's closer in. In Toronto the "East End" used to mean Cabbagetown and thereabouts. Presumably the West End in earlier times may have been around Little Italy and Trinity Bellwoods today.
To me, "side" is American and "end" is British.

To me knowledge, all anglophone Canadian cities from Ontario eastwards tend to have "ends". I know for sure for Ottawa, Toronto, Halifax and a number of others.

Vancouver has "sides". Not sure about cities on the Prairies.

There isn't really an equivalent in French to "side/end", and mostly it's just "L'Est" for example. Though Anglo-Montrealers may refer to the eastern part of the city as the "east end"... not sure? I am pretty sure they don't say "east side" and "west side" though.
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  #90  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:28 PM
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West End is a high rise residential area on the downtown peninsula in Vancouver, West Side is the suburbs to the southwest towards UBC - but not including UBC. And of course West Vancouver is across the Lions Gate Bridge to the northwest, beside the two North Vans.

East Side and East Van are in the same place, but East Side is a more concentrated area. Silly city.

South Vancouver used to be its own municipality like the North Vans and West Van, but disappeared in time. This is a good video:

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  #91  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:38 PM
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To me, "side" is American and "end" is British.

To me knowledge, all anglophone Canadian cities from Ontario eastwards tend to have "ends". I know for sure for Ottawa, Toronto, Halifax and a number of others.
Boston has "ends" - North End, West End and South End. But they're the edge of the original city of Boston which later took in areas like South Boston, Roxbury, Jamaica Plain, Charlestown etc.

In London West End really means Westminster and Camden. East End is Tower Hamlets borough.
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  #92  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:39 PM
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Not sure about cities on the Prairies.
In Winnipeg the North End is the north side of the old pre-amalgamated city.
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  #93  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 8:41 PM
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Boston has "ends" - North End, West End and South End. But they're the edge of the original city of Boston which later took in areas like South Boston, Roxbury, Jamaica Plain, Charlestown etc.

In London West End really means Westminster and Camden. East End is Tower Hamlets borough.
I believe Boston is one of the only American cities that has "ends". It's also the oldest and arguably the most British.
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  #94  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 4:15 AM
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Thunder Bay has sides and ends. Sides are in reference to the city as a whole, and generally there is only a north side (Port Arthur) and a south side (Fort William). The ends are neighbourhoods of the pre-amalgamation city, of which we have two North Ends, an East End (FW), two west ends, and a south end (PA). Fort William doesn't use its West End and North End designations anymore (the areas are now nameless) because there is too much ambiguity between the north end of Port Arthur (the northernmost part of the city) and West Fort (a community with its own identity apart from Fort William or even Thunder Bay, depending on who you ask), while Port Arthur rarely refers to its South and West ends by those names but people will typically know what you mean if you say them. My neighbourhood is beside the East End, but no actually part of the East End. It was called East Fort William, but it isn't called that anymore.

The North End bus route that existed until the 1980s was actually located in Fort William, further south than about 75% of the city. The East End in Fort William is located west of nearly half of Port Arthur, and south of all of it, but the city of Port Arthur did border it.

Winnipeg has something similar, where the East End of the former town of St. James blends into the West End of the former Winnipeg, near Polo Park.
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  #95  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 4:20 AM
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There was a lot of industry in Toronto's west end in the late 19th and early 20th century. But "west is best" didn't apply in Toronto then.
I disagree. The east side of town (Yonge as its central axis) continues to be under built and more affordable than the west side today.
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  #96  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 4:31 AM
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I believe Boston is one of the only American cities that has "ends". It's also the oldest and arguably the most British.
Edmonton uses both. Southside is most common for the south, West End is most common for the west, while Northside and North End are used interchangeably for the north. Edmonton's east is rather ambiguous, could mean Capilano or Beverly (they're on two different sides of the river) and generally encompass small areas that aren't enough to be a whole "side" and thus blend into the north or the south to an extent.
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  #97  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 2:47 PM
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Saskatoon is predominantly east side/west side, but there is also a north end. But no south end.
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  #98  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 3:03 PM
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Saskatoon is predominantly east side/west side, but there is also a north end. But no south end.
Funny how that goes... Winnipeg has a west end and a north end. There is a tendency to refer to a south end even though there is no commonly understood south end. There really is no east end to speak of.

What's interesting about the west end and north end is that they are practically adjacent to downtown... I guess they got those names a century ago when they really were the ends of the city, and it stuck even as the city's footprint leapfrogged them.

In terms of prosperity, as noted before I'd say Winnipeg is definitely oriented on a N/S split. The east side of town tends to be working class, the west side (beyond the working class West End) tends to be comfortably middle class. However, there are pockets of wealth that run along the rivers through the entire city... even in much of the North End, the banks of the Red River are lined with comfortable middle class homes even though gangs might be running around in a dilapidated neighbourhood 500m to the west.
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  #99  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 4:03 PM
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The west side is clearly the worst side of any city to live on. You have the sun in your eyes both ways when you commute.
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  #100  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2016, 4:07 PM
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South Vancouver used to be its own municipality like the North Vans and West Van, but disappeared in time. This is a good video:

Video Link
Interesting video thanks for sharing.
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