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  #381  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I think there's an over reaction by some living in a nation long dominated by one sport: hockey. People who prefer other sports build up frustration and instead of simply supporting the sport of their choice they seem compelled to trash hockey. They do the same thing to the CFL. The concept that people can like more than 1 sport is foreign to them. It's one or the other for them.

There's also a sense of entitlement bred into hockey fans in Canada. They've long been spoiled so now that they're confronted with sharing time with other sports some of them get angry. Many Leafs fans were irate that the Raptors game wasn't cut off when the Leafs game started. The Toronto Star article I linked earlier made mention of that. I think there's alot of truth to it.
Part of the sensitivity likely comes from the fact that iconic Canadian stuff that has some measure of universal appeal is pretty elusive or not always apparent for a lot of people. Hockey is one of the most obvious exceptions to the rule, which is why some people can be so obsessive and even defensive about it.

But as I said in another post, it's not abormal to have one sport totally dominate fan interest in a country. Many countries are like this (at least inasmuch as there is only one team sport that has ubiquity) but that sport is almost always soccer of course.
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  #382  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 2:08 PM
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In many U.S. cities you have four or five major pro sports present and viable in the city, but 80-90% of the sports media attention and chatter is on the local NFL club.
I get a kick out of the college sports towns where the local NCAA teams dominate... Raleigh-Durham being one of the prime examples. Could you imagine in Ottawa people barely acknowledging the Sens and RBs while devouring page after page of newspaper coverage, hour after hour of sports radio content covering the Carleton and U. Ottawa basketball teams, 12 months of the year? It's their thing, but man... it boggles the mind.
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  #383  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 2:38 PM
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^^ US cities and towns where the NCAA is #1 also tend to be cities/towns with no professional sports teams to speak of. Chapel Hill has North Carolina, South Bend has Notre Dame, Tuscaloosa has Alabama, and there are 100+ other places like that. They exist in densely populated areas by Canadian standards so you have a huge population within an hours drive with no other option but the nearest NCAA team.

There are a few exceptions to that rule like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and LA but in those places people follow both the pro teams and the NCAA not one over the other. The NCAA, for the most part, fills a void when there's no professional team to get behind. Due to the massive size of the US, there are a ton of cities and towns like that. This in turn helped develop the NCAA into what we see today.

In Canada we don't have the population to support 2 well developed sport systems: one pro, one university. We can barely support professional sports on our own: the CFL. The closest we get is the relevance of university sports in the Maritimes due to a dearth of pro teams and the interest in Laval football in Quebec City. Quebec City has no CFL so Laval filled that void. As there are so few places like this in Canada, university sports have never been able to reach its potential or compete with pro sports here.

If Canada had 150 million people spread out over our southern third I bet things would be vastly different.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Part of the sensitivity likely comes from the fact that iconic Canadian stuff that has some measure of universal appeal is pretty elusive or not always apparent for a lot of people. Hockey is one of the most obvious exceptions to the rule, which is why some people can be so obsessive and even defensive about it.

But as I said in another post, it's not abormal to have one sport totally dominate fan interest in a country. Many countries are like this (at least inasmuch as there is only one team sport that has ubiquity) but that sport is almost always soccer of course.
Agree with all of those points.

For most of our history we appropriated culture/traditions from elsewhere, altered it, and developed something new. Baseball and football are good examples of that. What's different now is that domestically developed culture is being challenged by a completely foreign product like soccer.

When culture changes there will always be those that resist it negatively by lashing out. You see it when McDonalds opens outlets in France and you see it here when soccer makes inroads in Canada. It's healthy and preferable to accommodate soccer but a problem arises if it's at the expense of our own domestically developed culture.

In a perfect world they'd be room for all of it. In the real world people worry that a piece of our culture that took generations to develop will eventually wither and die. It doesn't help when many people seem to have such indifference to sports like hockey or Canadian football. It only fuels the resentment.

The resentment to the rise of basketball is bizarre though. It's not something we've imported from Europe or Asia. I suspect hockey folk who do that are the same that hold the view that HOCKEY = CANADA and therefore nothing else qualifies as Canadian culture. It's a very narrow view and a bit insulting to the other facets of our culture at the same time.
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  #384  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 2:41 PM
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Back to basketball. That was one lousy game the Raptors put up in the series opener. They even outrebounded the Bucs by four and still lost by 14 at home. Ugly, ugly game 1. Better hope for better shooting tonight or the Maple Leafs might be the Toronto team playing in May.
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  #385  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 3:06 PM
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Back to basketball. That was one lousy game the Raptors put up in the series opener. They even outrebounded the Bucs by four and still lost by 14 at home. Ugly, ugly game 1. Better hope for better shooting tonight or the Maple Leafs might be the Toronto team playing in May.
TFC and the Jays will still be playing!
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  #386  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 3:35 PM
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That link is based on participation in organized sports in 2014. I imagine the Government of Canada study was based on different criteria. It could have been as vague as 'what team sport do you follow most?' or 'what team sport do you play the most?'.

I doubt most people who play and/or follow basketball play organized basketball. A lot of it is pick up games at the local gym or the nearest driveway with a hoop.
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  #387  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes View Post
Back to basketball. That was one lousy game the Raptors put up in the series opener. They even outrebounded the Bucs by four and still lost by 14 at home. Ugly, ugly game 1. Better hope for better shooting tonight or the Maple Leafs might be the Toronto team playing in May.
If will be tough getting to the Eastern Conference Finals this year but they're capable of beating anyone in the east if they play to their potential. I don't think one could say that last year.
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  #388  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 4:16 PM
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The resentment to the rise of basketball is bizarre though. It's not something we've imported from Europe or Asia. I suspect hockey folk who do that are the same that hold the view that HOCKEY = CANADA and therefore nothing else qualifies as Canadian culture. It's a very narrow view and a bit insulting to the other facets of our culture at the same time.
Opposition to basketball is at least partly related to a perception of a dearth of Canadian "cues" in the mainstream popular variant of the sport. (In spite of the link to Canada in its origins, which you rightly point out.)

Forgive the ignorance of a non-fan but to me the rise of basketball in Canada mostly means the Raptors from a US-dominated league with almost all American players, plus people in Canada getting all pumped up for March Madness where we have no teams. With, sure, a handful of token Canadians playing a teeny tiny role in all of that.

I don't see the rise of basketball leading to heightened mainstream interest in the U Sport level, feeding into anything satisfying on the pro level for Canada as whole beyond the GTA. (And even then...)

I may be wrong and perhaps things will evolve differently, but if I look at baseball I see basketball in Canada evolving along those same lines, as opposed to the obvious connection between U Sport and the CFL that continues to grow, or even the CHL and the NHL. Even soccer is better IMO as we have three MLS clubs, some NASL clubs and maybe even a Canadian Premier League that might stick around.
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  #389  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 4:27 PM
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There are a few exceptions to that rule like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and LA but in those places people follow both the pro teams and the NCAA not one over the other. The NCAA, for the most part, fills a void when there's no professional team to get behind. Due to the massive size of the US, there are a ton of cities and towns like that. This in turn helped develop the NCAA into what we see today.
College sports in the U.S. have always been huge because they were there first and the traditions are ingrained. They didn't "fill a void" or "develop into what we see today" simply because of a lack of pro teams. Nobody in northern Indiana thought "oh well, we don't have an NFL team, so I guess we'll have to follow Notre Dame." The very idea is ridiculous, and college sports fans would laugh in your face if you suggested it.

For example, the NFL was never that big in the U.S. until the 1960s, when they invented the Super Bowl. The name "Super Bowl" was inspired by the so-called bowl games in college that were already steeped in tradition.

College sports are the closest thing Americans have to the legacy traditions of European football, where clubs are indelibly ingrained in local lore going back a century or more, and are essentially locked into their cities for eternity. Try to imagine a college in the U.S. or a football club in Europe "moving city" like sports teams in North America do all the time. You can't do it. The very idea is preposterous.

But how is it that cities like Los Angeles, St. Louis and Houston had periods without NFL teams? I mean, can you imagine Manchester without United and City? Barcelona without Barca? Bloomington without the Hoosiers? Chapel Hill without the Tar Heels? It's just impossible.

Though some baseball teams in North America do almost get to that level of fanaticism and rich history as well, like the Yankees and the Cubs. We get some of that with the Leafs and Canadiens, too, though the richness of the traditions aren't really as comparable.
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  #390  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 4:30 PM
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For most of our history we appropriated culture/traditions from elsewhere, altered it, and developed something new. Baseball and football are good examples of that. What's different now is that domestically developed culture is being challenged by a completely foreign product like soccer.

When culture changes there will always be those that resist it negatively by lashing out. You see it when McDonalds opens outlets in France and you see it here when soccer makes inroads in Canada. It's healthy and preferable to accommodate soccer but a problem arises if it's at the expense of our own domestically developed culture.

In a perfect world they'd be room for all of it. In the real world people worry that a piece of our culture that took generations to develop will eventually wither and die. It doesn't help when many people seem to have such indifference to sports like hockey or Canadian football. It only fuels the resentment.
.
The resentment becomes more intense when there is a perception that the biggest city in the country (that controls the media, and so greatly influences national culture even in far-flung regions) is increasingly indifferent to the country's traditional likes. And when that this indifference is displayed with defiance, it just makes things worse.

Metropolis-hinterland relationships are always complex, but due to various factors Canada has a variant of the phenom that's particularly intense I'd say.

I'd assume that a lot of people who sincerely cheer on the Jays (and maybe the Raptors too) in the "wider Canada" would also like the 416 crowd to be a bit more enthusiastic about the CFL, the Brier, etc., and would be truly dismayed or even angered if hockey ever really took a back seat in the Big Smoke.
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  #391  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 4:43 PM
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Though some baseball teams in North America do almost get to that level of fanaticism and rich history as well, like the Yankees and the Cubs. We get some of that with the Leafs and Canadiens, too, though the richness of the traditions aren't really as comparable.
I won't say yay or nay for the Leafs, but the Canadiens' fandom here is definitely on a similar level as that of the Yankees, Cubs or Red Sox, or of an old prestigious European soccer club in its home market. No doubt about it.
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  #392  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2017, 5:30 PM
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If will be tough getting to the Eastern Conference Finals this year but they're capable of beating anyone in the east if they play to their potential. I don't think one could say that last year.
The path through Cleveland is obviously poor, but Cleveland has some weaknesses and I like their chances if playing well more than last year. But playing well is another story.
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  #393  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 3:05 PM
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The path through Cleveland is obviously poor, but Cleveland has some weaknesses and I like their chances if playing well more than last year. But playing well is another story.
That pretty much sums up how I view it too. Milwaukee? That Greek guy is amazing and Thon Maker is considerably better than his brother (who played at the BioSteel last Monday).
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  #394  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 3:17 PM
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At least they won last night. I'd like to see them take Cleveland to six next round, but there is still a lot of work to be done. Maybe playing on the road will help them figure things out a bit.
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  #395  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 3:38 PM
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Six Canadians Entering 2017 NBA Draft

The number of active Canadians playing in the NBA is at an all time high at 12. Meanwhile 6 Canadians have declared to get in the mix, entering the 2017 NBA Draft or surveying the field to see if there’s any traction before signing with an agent.

Chris Boucher | Senior | Oregon | 6’10 | 200 lbs | Forward
2016-2017 Average: 11.8 pts, 6.1 reb, 2.5 blk

Dillon Brooks | Junior | Oregon | 6’7 | 225 lbs | Forward
2016-2017 Average: 16.1 pts, 3.2 reb. 2.7 ast

MiKyle McIntosh | Senior | Illinois State | 6’7 | 234 lbs | Forward
2016-2017 Average: 12.5 pts, 5.6 reb, 1.8 ast

Joseph Chartounty | Sophomore | Fordham | 6’3 | 205 lbs | Point Guard
2016-2017 Average: 12.1 pts, 4.1 reb, 5 ast

Dylan Ennis | Returning Senior | Oregon | 6’2 | 195 lbs | Guard
2016-2017 Average: 10.9 pts,

Xavier Rathan-Mayes | Junior | Florida State | 6’4 | 208 lbs | Guard
2016-2017 Average: 10.6 pts, 3.2 reb, 4.8 ast

Full article: http://northpolehoops.com/2017/04/18...017-nba-draft/
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  #396  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 4:18 PM
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Opposition to basketball is at least partly related to a perception of a dearth of Canadian "cues" in the mainstream popular variant of the sport. (In spite of the link to Canada in its origins, which you rightly point out.)
Agree although that perception is changing; especially with the younger generation coming up now. They view it as part of their culture. You see it in the language they use. 'Canada's Game'; 'Bringing it back to Canada'.

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Forgive the ignorance of a non-fan but to me the rise of basketball in Canada mostly means the Raptors from a US-dominated league with almost all American players, plus people in Canada getting all pumped up for March Madness where we have no teams. With, sure, a handful of token Canadians playing a teeny tiny role in all of that.
All valid points. Americans dominate basketball and the US sports machine is hard to compete with. The NBA, Raptors, and NCAA are what's fueling the basketball boom in Canada but will contest your perception that Canadians are playing a teeny role.

The Raptors and their fan base have made a mark in the NBA and it's grown into one of the strongest markets in the league. If anything, it's paving the way for future expansion in Canada. That's a discussion for another time though. There are only 12 Canadians currently in the NBA but that's more than any other country (USA excluded). If you listen to Basketball Canada we're still early on in the sports ascension in this country. They point to the class of 2019 and 2020 as the first 'big' group of kids coming through the system. They suggest it won't be the high water mark either as the sport is still growing rapidly nationally.

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I don't see the rise of basketball leading to heightened mainstream interest in the U Sport level, feeding into anything satisfying on the pro level for Canada as whole beyond the GTA. (And even then...)
I agree that U Sport is the big question mark. Building strong AAU teams is one thing but competing with basketball programs with revenue in the tens of millions of dollars is quite another. It still feels like an insurmountable hill to climb. For the forseeable future Canadians will head to NCAA D1, watch March Madness, and the only Canadians who will also watch the Final 8 (Canada's version) will be Maritimers.

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I may be wrong and perhaps things will evolve differently, but if I look at baseball I see basketball in Canada evolving along those same lines, as opposed to the obvious connection between U Sport and the CFL that continues to grow, or even the CHL and the NHL. Even soccer is better IMO as we have three MLS clubs, some NASL clubs and maybe even a Canadian Premier League that might stick around.
Baseball and basketball held a similar place in Canada the last 100 years. About 15 years ago things changed for basketball. There's been a groundswell of interest with kids right across Canada. It's the cool sport and it's not going anywhere. Basketball Canada has managed the sport's growth magnificently and they're very ambitious. They're on record as stating that they want to build Canada into the #1 basketball nation in the world.

Whether Canada gets there is questionable but you can tell they believe that it's attainable. That alone speaks volumes about their ambitions for the sport in this country. Baseball has none of these things going for it.

Vancouver and Montreal with NBA by 2025 isn't pie in the sky. I wouldn't be surprised to see every Canadian NHL city (Winnipeg excluded) with an NBA team eventually. Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa are all wealthy, grow quickly, and as big as Salt Lake City. The Calgary NBA game sold out in minutes. Expansion to these cities is decades down the road though.
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World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams

Last edited by isaidso; Apr 19, 2017 at 6:06 PM.
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  #397  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 1:52 AM
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I swear the Raptors must be the most inconsistent team in the NBA.

I mean, they're obviously good, considering their regular-season record and ability to go pretty deep into the playoffs, but I've never seen a team that so frequently like, wins a game... loses the next by 30... and then wins the next game again after that.
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  #398  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 2:29 AM
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Getting ass-raped.
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  #399  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 5:21 AM
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I just don't know what to think anymore. Right now I think they're going to lose to the Bucks in 6, but maybe Saturday they'll look like world-beaters and then I'll think that they'll win the series in 6.

But it's not looking good right now. Something's wrong with this team. On paper they've got everything, the addition of Serge Ibaka has made them a lot better than last year talent-wise, but I'm afraid that those first two years of playoff failure along with the spotty playoff record of last year have done irreparable harm to the mental games of DeRozan and Lowry.

I suspect that every game they suit up in the playoffs they have to fight back the nagging worry that they might fuck up again like they did before. Sometimes they win the fight, and then sometimes, like tonight, they lose. Badly.
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  #400  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 2:37 PM
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They are messed up. Shooting has been atrocious. You don't win (m)any games when you lose field goal percentage by 20.
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