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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
The 407 borders a hydro corridor which makes it look worse than it is. Plus the area isn't fully developed there yet, unlike the other example.

Not just a hydro corridor but land reserved for pipelines and a future transitway. The land on which the 407 was built was protected by Ontario's first provincial plan, the Parkway Belt West Plan. This essentially reserved huge swaths of land across the GTHA (from Hamilton to East Markham) specifically for infrastructure, and also included buffer park lands to separate urban areas. The latter proved to be somewhat of a failure and is slowly being converted and sold off for urban development. The rest proved very useful in providing adequate space for the 407 and one of the countries largest transmission corridors without having to resort to much expropriation / demolition of existing structures.

http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/Page5667.aspx
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 3:21 AM
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I spent at least an hour here at this spaghetti junction (note the pedestrian circle and off/on ramps), just soaking in the craziness, the last time I was in Shanghai. I will be back again this summer.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 3:25 AM
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a freeway in an expanding city is the epitome of the tragedy of the commons.


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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 3:32 AM
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There is something odd about the way this thing is engineered (in my opinion). Looks kind of half assed or something.

Whats up with the curved ramp closest to the bottom of the picture. There is a lane that starts then merges right back in (and the merge starts and ends in like a car length). It only looks about 9 or 10 car lengths long.

Actually looking closer the fourth level of the interchange has the same thing going on. Goes one lane to two lanes, then back to one lane. It seems like they are really trying to make the whole thing work as poorly as possible.

looking even closer the next level up does the same thing....was this thing designed by kids?
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster View Post


There is something odd about the way this thing is engineered (in my opinion). Looks kind of half assed or something.

Whats up with the curved ramp closest to the bottom of the picture. There is a lane that starts then merges right back in (and the merge starts and ends in like a car length). It only looks about 9 or 10 car lengths long.

Actually looking closer the fourth level of the interchange has the same thing going on. Goes one lane to two lanes, then back to one lane. It seems like they are really trying to make the whole thing work as poorly as possible.

looking even closer the next level up does the same thing....was this thing designed by kids?
I'm fairly sure the road markings are new to try to improve merging when two ramps come together (not that most Shanghai drivers would actually follow the markings, especially during periods of congestion). The other thing to note is that the speed limits on the expressways in this interchange are actually very low - the Inner Ring Road (topmost level) has a speed limit of only 60km/h, while the North-South Elevated Road (first elevated level) has a speed limit of 80km/h (it's wider than the Inner Ring Road, so traffic can move faster), so the speeds of vehicles through this interchange are considerably lower than what you'd see on a North American freeway interchange.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
By "wasteful" I mean, sure, cutting butter with a chainsaw is faster than with a butterknife, but you might wreck the counter top. It's great that I can maintain 200kph while switching freeways on a flyover, but if it means dooming the surrounding urban area into unconnected regions that can neither be crossed by foot nor effectively serviced by transit, forcing more people into cars, thus generating the traffic queue that I'm stuck at on the first arterial off-ramp, then it's of little value.

Give me the 1st scenario over the 2nd, any day.



The first example is a weird form of diamond interchange where cars have to move over to the left lane in order to exit the freeway. Pretty inefficient if you ask me and borderline dangerous. In a city with Toronto's volumes that would be a huge bottleneck. Not to mention that diamomd interchanges are limited by how many cars they can move. In Edmonton where traffic volumes are lower diamond interchanges work fine, for the most part. But in Toronto, where traffic volumes are quadruple that of Edmonton's, parclos are a necessity unless you want to spend even longer trying to get home at night.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 3:44 PM
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South Bay Interchange Boston- Copyright 2006, Garrett A. Wollman
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nterchange.jpg



created by Sswonk for wikipedia https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...change.svg.png

This is at the southern end of the Big Dig Project in Boston a little south and west of the Financial District and Chinatown/Leather District. Interstate 93 and 90 as well as US Route 1 and Massachusetts Route 3 all pass through this interchange.

Interstate 90 and local roads interchange with Allston Toll Both- This is being redesigned to take up less space and have open road tolling.



Orange outline shows the area of the interchange.

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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2016, 4:29 PM
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Montreal loves spaghetti.

Decarie Interchange



Anjou Interchange



Acadie Interchange

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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 3:30 PM
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Most wasteful interchange?

I would say a full cloverleaf in a urban or suburban setting. Uses up lots of land, very dangerous and inefficient. Full cloverleafs should be converted with traffic signals on the arterials or have flyovers replacing loops for free-flow connections.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 4:18 PM
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This is really a bit of a dumb thread - yeah, I get that there are people on this forum who are opposed to anything that consumes land and doesn't promote densification/urban ideology but the simple fact is the the automotibe is here with us and won't be going away any time soon.

So to move people in automobiles efficiently is to reduce roadblocks and free flowing interchanges are one simple way of doing that. Are they going to consume land, yupp, but they keeps things moving and a car travelling at speed is probably better for our environment then a whole bunch stuck in stop and go traffic.

And besides that, disjointed communities are something that a lot of people like - talk to most people that live in these communities and you'd find most of them don't want to live in an older gridded or curvilinear community. I don't get it because I like the fact that I can walk 5 or 10 minutes and be on the doorstop of multiple shops and such whereas people in these disjointed communities don't really care about that as they're quite comfortable jumping in their SUV or BMW or Mercedes , backing out of their double attached front drive garage and driving for 5 or 10 minutes to the nearest chain store. This is fact whether people wish to acknowledge this or not and it's not going to disappear any time soon or at least in my time left on this big ball of dirt.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Most wasteful interchange?

I would say a full cloverleaf in a urban or suburban setting. Uses up lots of land, very dangerous and inefficient. Full cloverleafs should be converted with traffic signals on the arterials or have flyovers replacing loops for free-flow connections.
This.

A cloverleaf may not be as wasteful in land area as compared to other types of interchanges but when one starts comparing the efficiencies and safety of various types of interchanges, the cloverleaf will always fall to the bottom of the list. Calgary has one cloverleaf left as best as I can recall and in comparison to any other type of truly free flowing interchange, it is truly just a PITA..
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 4:33 PM
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Ontario has 2 clover leafs left, one on the DVP in Toronto that will probably be around for a while as the city maintains it, and one in Belleville who's days are numbered.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Ontario has 2 clover leafs left, one on the DVP in Toronto that will probably be around for a while as the city maintains it, and one in Belleville who's days are numbered.
There's also this oddly-angled one. Pretty evil:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.85336.../data=!3m1!1e3



Worst one could be the ring around Dallas. So much potential space:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@32.78070...7932608,14.97z
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 10:15 PM
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Montréal

A-15/640 interchange. North Shore in Boisbriand

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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
This.

A cloverleaf may not be as wasteful in land area as compared to other types of interchanges but when one starts comparing the efficiencies and safety of various types of interchanges, the cloverleaf will always fall to the bottom of the list. Calgary has one cloverleaf left as best as I can recall and in comparison to any other type of truly free flowing interchange, it is truly just a PITA..
Are you talking about 16th and Barlow? I believe that was the first cloverleaf in Calgary - back when Barlow was Edmonton Trail (and actually went to Edmonton). It also has the distinction of being the only cloverleaf I've seen that actually looks like a clover.


There's at least one other cloverleaf I can think of, albeit with oddly-shaped lobes, and not a highway-highway interchange either. University and 16th. Of course there's also many three-lobe clovers (Deerfoot and Glenmore surely would have been four-lobed if they had space).


Crowchild and Stoney is a little weird. Its a modified cloverleaf, such that weave lanes are only on one of the two highways and also such that the weave lanes are longer. However, its also weird in that its a very new interchange; most interchanges on Stoney were parclos, and cloverstacks if volume warranted (both Stoney-Deerfoot interchanges, as well as Stoney-TCH).
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
This is really a bit of a dumb thread - yeah, I get that there are people on this forum who are opposed to anything that consumes land and doesn't promote densification/urban ideology but the simple fact is the the automotibe is here with us and won't be going away any time soon.
I don't think you understand the concept of human constructs. Human constructs are something that as humans, we have total and complete control over. It isn't like, "The planet is simply spinning", or "The continents are simply drifting" and this won't be stopping any time soon, so you may as well just accept it. This is something that if we as a society decide to stop or reduce, it stops or gets reduced. And as members of said society, it's all of our right and responsibility to add our voices to the discussion of what decisions our society makes. If you don't like or approve of something, you push for change. Nothing dumb about that.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2017, 11:59 PM
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is it really that bad?

I don't perceive it as that much of a problem. Sure the land loses it's potential
revenu value, but in most cases, there's enough open space for greenspace. Appreciate it as such.*
Also, are the curving 'spaghetti' ramps so unsightly? I some cases admittedly yes, but they often provide an interesting work of road architecture and design.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by VIce View Post
Are you talking about 16th and Barlow? I believe that was the first cloverleaf in Calgary - back when Barlow was Edmonton Trail (and actually went to Edmonton). It also has the distinction of being the only cloverleaf I've seen that actually looks like a clover.


There's at least one other cloverleaf I can think of, albeit with oddly-shaped lobes, and not a highway-highway interchange either. University and 16th. Of course there's also many three-lobe clovers (Deerfoot and Glenmore surely would have been four-lobed if they had space).


Crowchild and Stoney is a little weird. Its a modified cloverleaf, such that weave lanes are only on one of the two highways and also such that the weave lanes are longer. However, its also weird in that its a very new interchange; most interchanges on Stoney were parclos, and cloverstacks if volume warranted (both Stoney-Deerfoot interchanges, as well as Stoney-TCH).
Those first two in Calgary really should be converted - I would say a Parclo A4 (favouring 16th Avenue) for Barlow, while the University interchange could use a complete redesign with Crowchild nearby. A Parclo-AB (all ramps on the west side of the interchange) is probably the best idea there (and the lost ramps in the "island" can become a park?) Only downside is that movements from Crowchild to EB 16th Avenue require using the 13th Avenue ramp to backtrack...

The Stoney-Crowchild interchange was probably hindered by the LRT in the middle? That would have necessitated very high flyovers for upper level ramps.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 12:51 AM
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I'm not sure if ours count as interchanges, but some have been quite destructive:



(Reminds me of some course at MUN where Ayreonaut had to study the Pitts Memorial intersection above and it noted "by some design flaw, both exits for tractor trailer traffic pushed freighters into the downtown core and heading away from the depot" lol).

And the rest are just a bit weird...







But some seem decently designed.







And there are a few where you can't even get off the highway if you're leaving the city - good riddance planning, I guess:

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Last edited by SignalHillHiker; Feb 19, 2017 at 1:01 AM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 2:56 AM
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For Ontario: I remember seeing on the MTO's website that the 401/400 interchange will be worked on sometime in the next 5 years. Does anybody know what the plans are and what type of work will be done? I've always found it to be a poor interchange considering the volume of traffic. Is there enough room for it to be improved with better ramps and more levels?
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