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  #2781  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 4:53 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Let them starve to death..............no great loss.

I don't care what the cause is, hunger strikes are blackmail and nothing more. From economic issues all the way to the suspension of Parliament a la Harper, the cause is irrelevant. This is holding a government under siege and makes a mockery of our democratic institutions and values.

These people have absolutely NO respect for the rule of law nor do they understand what a democratic government is...........it's nothing short of mob rule. Its a couple of people who feel that the last election win by the government is not to their liking so they blackmail a government that was fairly elected into office.
It is a bit absurd how individuals pretend that we don't live in a democracy anymore and that people are not elected by the electorate.

If you don't like a politician's decisions, engage them through the official channels, and vote in the next election. That's how the system works.

I'm not sure where this streak of petulant children comes from, but you can see it in America too with regards to Trump. Violence, riots, property damage.

I think it is some combination of a generation of people losing ties to the old world of people who came from authoritarian governments, the spectre of military draft and large scale war fading into a distant memory, and people not understanding the basic purpose and functioning of our government. Ironically, the more this line of action is followed, the closer we nudge towards tyranny of the minority and dictatorship.
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  #2782  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 5:00 PM
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I think it's impossible for us to ever change federal fisheries policy through democratic means. So we have draggers from other provinces and countries treating up the habitat and harvesting spawning stocks while the inshore fish harvesters adjacent to the resource are left out. Cuba gets more of our fish under NAFO than we do. We and the fishery just aren't important enough to get federal policies designed to support us through democratic means. The fishery struggles to be a focus even in St. John's, let alone Ottawa.

So I don't think there is another way. Canada has the power, but not the interest. We have the interest, but not the power. We really should've fought more for maintaining custodial management of our fishery when negotiating the terms of Union. If we spent half the time on that that Joey spent negotiating our right to export margarine... lol
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  #2783  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Meanwhile in Moncton.........



This in a nutshell is the situation of Moncton vs Saint John.

In Saint John, the city is in financial extremis due to deteriorating infrastructure and population loss. There is a large percentage of the citizenry in the port city that views the Irving empire as the source of all the city's problems. The Irving family is viewed (by these people) as being a bunch of robber-barons, living off the booty of the common folk in the city. The Irving's therefore are viewed with considerable scorn and derision by this particular constituency within the city. This viewpoint is not entirely without merit as a series of "sweetheart" property tax arrangements have been negotiated by the Irving's for their industrial properties, impoverishing the municipal purse. Of course, the Irving's in turn contribute back to the economy with literally thousands of well paying jobs in the industrial sector, so the situation is not entirely "black and white".

What this attitude in Saint John does accomplish is to convey a stark impression of bitterness, anger, disillusionment and resentment within the civic character. This is most unfortunate, and mark my words, this "bad attitude" is noticed by others in the Maritime region.

Moncton also has been dealt a bad hand in the past with closures of several major employers (CN shops, CFB Moncton, Eaton's catalogue warehouse) in the 1980s, throwing literally 4-5,000 people out of work (in a civic population at the time of about 80-90,000). Our civic leaders didn't sit around and wallow in their own misery though, they did some serious self analysis, decided to focus on the areas of the economy where our city had a natural advantage and then did some serious hard work to turn the civic ship of state around. Within literally only a decade, the city was on the right track, population began to grow, new business opportunities arose and the virtuous circle of economic growth developed.

Saint John could learn from us. If you don't like the Irvings, don't make them feel unwelcome and resented (this could come back and bite you - i.e. there might be a reason why they moved their shipyard to Halifax). Find ways to work with them to create new business opportunities, while at the same time reassessing what your strengths as a community are, and finding new ways to diversify your economy.

You can either approach the future with resentment and negativity or with optimism and positive thinking. Your choice Saint John, your choice.........
And this ^ is the incredible and gross over simplification of the Irving-Saint John dichotomy. It ignores the power the Irvings have vs the power the City doesn't. It ignores the business practises the Irvings use in manipulating the City into getting what they want at the expense of everyone else. It ignores the antiquated zoning and industrial facilities that turn people away from living in what would otherwise be a stunning urban and natural setting.

The Irving's think that because they employ people who pay taxes that they themselves shouldn't have to. Hilarious. We all generate tax revenue directly and indirectly, but just because I bought a car and paid tax on it, does that then replace my responsibilities to the commitment of a just society or my obligations to pay income tax? Just because the city receives indirect tax revenue from the Irvings does not at all mean they do not still have to pay direct tax dollars as well.

This take also ignores the politics that have contributed to the sharp rebound that took place in Mton with representatives in the premiers office bringing in that rebound. The city can't quite take all the credit. Saint John doesn't have champions in the premiers office, never has. Not since the 30s.

But hey mate, you are absolutely right. Many in Saint John know Irving's are living off the backs of the citizenry. 1) Capitalists inherently steal the fruits of their employees labour. That's a fact. It's a legal form of theft 2) Decades of public subsidies have only added to the perception and rightly so. 3) 30 per cent of children in Saint John live in poverty and a quarter of all people do so as well. And when you are a family of billionaires working to evade tax you are directly causing harm to the social services many of these people depend on.

You say Saint John has the choice? Where is the choice when the economy of a city has been reduced to fuming mills that turn away anyone who doesn't directly work there. Try living next to one and try selling your house. Where's the choice in negotiating between giving these billionaires what they want or possibly losing hundreds of jobs.

It isn't "bad attitude" (which, given the economic reality in Saint John, is frankly, a disgusting thing to hear). It is bad circumstance.

Last edited by saintjohnirish☘; Apr 19, 2017 at 8:09 PM.
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  #2784  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 6:58 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I think it's impossible for us to ever change federal fisheries policy through democratic means. So we have draggers from other provinces and countries treating up the habitat and harvesting spawning stocks while the inshore fish harvesters adjacent to the resource are left out. Cuba gets more of our fish under NAFO than we do. We and the fishery just aren't important enough to get federal policies designed to support us through democratic means. The fishery struggles to be a focus even in St. John's, let alone Ottawa.

So I don't think there is another way. Canada has the power, but not the interest. We have the interest, but not the power. We really should've fought more for maintaining custodial management of our fishery when negotiating the terms of Union. If we spent half the time on that that Joey spent negotiating our right to export margarine... lol
I have to confess that my only take away from the St John's DFO business has been the comment from one of the fishermen at the start of the protest that his quota had been reduced to such an extent that he wouldn't be able to work enough days this year to qualify for EI. One trusts that the organizers took him aside for a word before he spoke to the media again.
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  #2785  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I have to confess that my only take away from the St John's DFO business has been the comment from one of the fishermen at the start of the protest that his quota had been reduced to such an extent that he wouldn't be able to work enough days this year to qualify for EI. One trusts that the organizers took him aside for a word before he spoke to the media again.
Maybe not. They might have been nodding in agreement in the background. We have a bit of the same problem (though not to that extent) here in NB. EI is supposed to be a net, but not a goal, though they sound similar to people who play hockey.
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  #2786  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I have to confess that my only take away from the St John's DFO business has been the comment from one of the fishermen at the start of the protest that his quota had been reduced to such an extent that he wouldn't be able to work enough days this year to qualify for EI. One trusts that the organizers took him aside for a word before he spoke to the media again.
For many, that is unfortunately the objective. However, I believe fish harvesters are one of those groups that have to repay much of the EI they receive with their profits from the season they actually work. Is that correct?
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  #2787  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
And this ^ is the incredible and gross over simplification of the Irving-Saint John dichotomy. It ignores the power the Irvings have vs the power the City doesn't. It ignores the business practises the Irvings use in manipulating the City into getting what they want at the expense of everyone else. It ignores the antiquated zoning and industrial facilities that turn people away from living in what would otherwise be a stunning urban and natural setting.
It's not an oversimplification. My thesis is that you should find ways to work with the Irvings to everyone's benefit, rather than tarring and feathering them and throwing them off King's Wharf. As for Saint John's industrial heritage, this also can't be thrown away. Personally, I'm fascinated by Saint John's working waterfront. The pulp mill is problematic, but nobody in their right mind would suggest moving it. At least it isn't as malodorous as it was back in the 1980s. The refinery and the LNG terminal at least are nowhere near the downtown or the waterfront.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
The Irving's think that because they employ people who pay taxes that they themselves shouldn't have to. Hilarious. We all generate tax revenue directly and indirectly, but just because I bought a car and paid tax on it, does that then replace my responsibilities to the commitment of a just society or my obligations to pay income tax? Just because the city receives indirect tax revenue from the Irvings does not at all mean they do not still have to pay direct tax dollars as well.
I also am uncomfortable with the sweetheart tax deals the Irving's have received for their mammoth industrial properties around the city. This single handedly explains the penury that your city council has to deal with. Having said this, most heavy industrial facilities and manufacturing plants receive provincial and federal subsidies of one form or another. One has to look no further than the auto industry in Ontario to see this. Is this fair? Likely not, but if the alternative is to decamp and reestablish your industry in a lower cost environment like Mexico, then you risk cutting off you nose to spite your face. Again, the way to deal with this is through negotiation, preferably including the province and the Irvings so that municipal tax rates do not suffer.

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Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
This take also ignores the politics that have contributed to the sharp rebound that took place in Mton with representatives in the premiers office bringing in that rebound. The city can't quite take all the credit. Saint John doesn't have champions in the premiers office, never has. Not since the 30s.
I would dispute this. There is no question that the McKenna government had a lot to do with the resurrection of Moncton in the 1980s & 1990s, but to say that Saint John has had no power since the 1930s is flatly wrong. Intense nationalism radiating from Saint John has thwarted a number of initiatives that Moncton has attempted over the years, especially in health care. By and large, Conservative governments have favoured Saint John and western NB. Liberal governments have favoured Moncton and eastern NB. There are two constituencies however that all politicians in the province fear - they are the Irish establishment (and the Irvings) in Saint John and the Acadian Intellectual Elite based in Moncton. Neither one of these two constituencies is much prone to negotiation or compromise, and tend to believe only in the politics of ultimatum and confrontation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
But hey mate, you are absolutely right. Many in Saint John know Irving's are living off the backs of the citizenry. 1) Capitalists inherently steal the fruits of their employees labour. That's a fact. It's a legal form of theft 2) Decades of public subsidies have only added to the perception and rightly so. 3) 30 per cent of children in Saint John live in poverty and a quarter of all people do so as well. And when you are a family of billionaires working to evade tax you are directly causing harm to the social services many of these people depend on.
Listen closely to what you are saying- "capitalism is inherently a legalized form of theft of employees labour". Wow - how long will it be before the proletarian masses start marching in Saint John and begin baying for the heads of the Irvings and the McCains to be placed on spikes at the city gates??? Saint John does have massive problems with poverty, but you don't solve this by driving the capitalists away!!! You solve this by expanding the economy and providing more opportunities for meaningful employment. You need the capitalists to help make this happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
You say Saint John has the choice? Where is the choice when the economy of a city has been reduced to fuming mills that turn away anyone who doesn't directly work there. Try living next to one and try selling your house. Where's the choice in negotiating between giving these billionaires what they want or possibly losing hundreds of jobs.
Saint John does have a choice. Things won't improve overnight, but by working in a cooperative manner with civic leaders and the captains of industry, circumstances will improve for all. If you frame your problems politely and succinctly, the Irvings might even be willing to pay some more property tax to the city (perhaps in return for a provincial subsidy - hence why the province needs to be part of the negotiation). Threats and intimidation on the other hand won't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
It isn't "bad attitude" (which, given the economic reality in Saint John, is frankly, a disgusting thing to hear). It is bad circumstance.
Circumstances are bad in SJ - no question, but problems should be addressed in a positive and constructive manner. All parties involved need to feel that they have something to gain. A win-win circumstance always trumps everything else. If capitalists begin to think that they have nothing to gain by investing in Saint John then everyone loses.........
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  #2788  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
For many, that is unfortunately the objective. However, I believe fish harvesters are one of those groups that have to repay much of the EI they receive with their profits from the season they actually work. Is that correct?
Everybody is subject to a "clawback" of EI if they earn above a certain threshold, afaik.
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  #2789  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2017, 2:08 AM
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It's not an oversimplification. My thesis is that you should find ways to work with the Irvings to everyone's benefit, rather than tarring and feathering them and throwing them off King's Wharf........
Alright now, we're speaking different languages here. But I'll give ya one thing. This is SJ vs Mton in a nutshell. One has soul; the other one sold it.

Last edited by saintjohnirish☘; Apr 20, 2017 at 4:50 AM.
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  #2790  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2017, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘ View Post
This is SJ vs Mton in a nutshell. One has soul; the other one sold it.
So Saint John will retain it's pride but remain poor. Moncton on the other hand will be a "sell out" but be prosperous and happy. I think I prefer our Monctonesque Faustian bargain myself.........

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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Interesting article which happens to currently be the lead story on CBC.ca

N.B. employers have jobs they can't fill — so they're looking south for job-seekers
Hundreds of people turned up at New York City job fair organized by Moncton-area employers
By Ioanna Roumeliotis and Jennifer Barr, CBC News Posted: Apr 18, 2017 6:00 AM AT
Last Updated: Apr 18, 2017 7:40 AM AT
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...cans-1.4061508

A very positive article exploring options to deal with about 1,000 high tech job positions in Moncton currently going unfilled. There's lots of interest south of the border, with hundreds showing up at a job fair in NYC. This could be a new way to stimulate population growth in the region - with ex-pat Americans.
CBC TV News special feature on the Moncton job fair story:

Video Link

Scrappy little city indeed!!
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  #2791  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2017, 4:28 PM
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So Saint John will retain it's pride but remain poor. Moncton on the other hand will be a "sell out" but be prosperous and happy. I think I prefer our Monctonesque Faustian bargain myself.........[/COLOR][/I]
I sincerely think he meant the other way around. Irvings = Devil.
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  #2792  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 3:38 AM
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Go moncton!!

Last edited by saintjohnirish☘; Apr 21, 2017 at 4:30 AM.
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  #2793  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Let them starve to death..............no great loss.

I don't care what the cause is, hunger strikes are blackmail and nothing more. From economic issues all the way to the suspension of Parliament a la Harper, the cause is irrelevant. This is holding a government under siege and makes a mockery of our democratic institutions and values.

These people have absolutely NO respect for the rule of law nor do they understand what a democratic government is...........it's nothing short of mob rule. Its a couple of people who feel that the last election win by the government is not to their liking so they blackmail a government that was fairly elected into office.
I don't look into this thread much, just to see any stats/press that gets posted. Any way, I'm going back a ways here.

ssiguy, I am once again blown over by your humanity. You sound embittered and miserable. Why so harsh all the time . . . someone directly threatening your pension?
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  #2794  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:17 PM
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The number of hunger strikers is growing, and the protests are spreading across the island. DFO had to shut down in St. John's because its employees refused to cross the picket lines.



It seems to be getting especially bad because it's happening concurrently with the rise of the Fish-NL Union, which is attracting fish harvesters currently represented by FFAW. FFAW has a cozy relationship with the federal government, and also represents groups whose interests are in direct opposition to those of independent harvesters. So Fish-NL is growing fast in popularity, and it uses all the dog whistle buzzwords (more like fog horn, it's not subtle at all) for separatist politics generally:

Quote:
If there's such a thing as rebel fashion within the Newfoundland and Labrador fishing industry, the FISH-NL cap is it. Show your support for the breakaway union — and make a statement against the salt-water mafia (FFAW) at the same time — by purchasing a hat for $25.
http://www.fish-nl.ca/merchandise

So a lot of the... passion... of these protests is as much Fish-NL versus FFAW as it is everyone versus DFO.
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  #2795  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:31 PM
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If that were to be done in Ontario they would have been arrested and charged with vandalism and trespassing.

I had to Google to find the story.
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  #2796  
Old Posted Today, 4:41 AM
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saintjohnirish☘ saintjohnirish☘ is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
So Saint John will retain it's pride but remain poor. Moncton on the other..
Wait up here boyo, how does a relatively new and land locked town like mton have "maritime charm". I mean Mton is basically a Truro that ate a few too many tim bits.

This kind of needless gov investment that we see from Gallant (bankrolling private sector jobs, stadiums, arenas, highway twins, bridges) into this region isn't warranted when NB literally watches SJ and others wither.
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