World Cup of Hockey 2016

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For example, it would be great and a major coup for the NHL if they held the next World Cup of Hockey primarily in Europe.

There already is a World Cup of Hockey primarily in Europe - it's called the World Championships (In Köln & Paris for 2017).
Having the next World Cup in the US would be the obvious next step (Columbus/Pittsburgh/Minnesota/wherever)

Originally Posted by big W

I think the next world cup will be with a qualification format for some counties and automatic berths for the usual suspects (Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland Czech Republic). I also suspect that they would expand it from 8 teams to say 12 so 6 additional counties as they would scrap the 2 gimmick teams. This would allow them to make money off of a quarterfinal round.

Any sources on any of this? What incentive is there for the WCH to get rid of the gimmick teams? If anything, people are watching to see how Team NA does more than anything else, and this tournament without that team would be a yawnfest IMO.

Originally Posted by Franco401

Gimme a break. The league has been very clear about this, no ads on jerseys are coming anytime ever. People want to be cynical about this so hard but it just won't happen. Even the World Cup jerseys they nearly didn't have them but the league didn't change their minds until SAP had the contract and wouldn't back up.

The WCH jerseys nearly didn't have ads because they were highballing sponsors. They're fortunate SAP came late with a low bid and went for it. Ads on jerseys are going to be coming sooner or later, it'll just depend on how well they go over in the NBA before the NHL decides on what direction they want to go. The AHL's had ads on their jerseys for decades and I don't hear anyone ever complaining about that, let alone the advertisement fiesta that is the CHL. It's always amusing how much people are against ads on jerseys because it'll ruin their sacred nature or whatever despite the fact that the team is owned, operated, and made possible by corporate money. If fans don't want their franchises to have ads on their jerseys perhaps they should consider fan ownership of franchises so that they actually have a say in the matter.

Originally Posted by big W

I would suspect much of the desire to stop going to the Olympics is money. Right now there are no upcoming games that are going to be held in a country that plays the game. The NHL started going in 98 with only 2 games in that time in a country that does not play it.
...
Now if 2026 is in North America or Europe we will probably see the NHL start going to the Olympics again if the World Cup money grab gimmick does not take off.

Pretty much. The NHL doesn't make much off the Olympics and in exchange they give up two weeks of games ($$$), potential injury to players ($$$) and lose momentum they may have otherwise earned during the doldrums of the winter.

The Olympics are being held in two interesting markets for hockey (not the NHL), particularly China as they have a new KHL franchise. Korea has been managing alright with their hockey development but it still has a way to go. Once the Winter Olympics promptly return to Europe/NA we'll promptly see the return of NHLers, in the event they forgo the Asian Olympics.

Originally Posted by Acajack

IIHF president René Fasel, likely out of desperation, has said that the NHL may not be able to pick and choose which Olympics it wants to take part in. Based on which ones are better for marketing and visibility.

Fasel is between a rock and a hard place. The IIHF needs NHL participation for the Olympics but can't really push them on anything. They're better with eachother. It's unfortunate a venture like the Victoria Cup couldn't last more than two seasons because I think that's the direction we need to start heading in.

I'm all for international competition (and I think we need way more of it) but I think club competition would boost a lot as well. Watching NHL teams play Euro teams is exciting, and is part of the appeal of the Spengler Cup as well. The Champions Hockey League is getting its legs and is still operating, so that's a bonus, and the KHL is far and away the most international of all leagues based on franchise locations. Many leagues in Europe are spreading across borders (Austrian EBEL, MOL Liga, Alps Hockey League) so more countries are getting involved more often.

Combining NHL, Euro, and KHL winners into a single, week-long tournament in August/September would be my ideal, but it'll likely never happen with the current regimes in place.

[Steveston]

Anyone think that there would be any support for U-23 teams (like the FIFA Olympic squads) for the Olympics and a regular WC (in summer Olympic years) made up 8 teams (as suggested earlier, the usual suspects, plus a qualifying round for the remaining spots) with no age restrictions?

This would dramatically change the status of winning a WC vs. an Olympic gold medal - it would be much more like the soccer arrangement. They're both prestigious, but everyone knows that the WC is the real 'best-on-best' tournament (unlike hockey's current situation, where the WC is a gimmick, and Olympic gold is much more coveted -- the Stanley Cup is probably something like winning a Champions League Cup).

[big W]

Originally Posted by JHikka

There already is a World Cup of Hockey primarily in Europe - it's called the World Championships (In Köln & Paris for 2017).
Having the next World Cup in the US would be the obvious next step (Columbus/Pittsburgh/Minnesota/wherever)


Any sources on any of this? What incentive is there for the WCH to get rid of the gimmick teams? If anything, people are watching to see how Team NA does more than anything else, and this tournament without that team would be a yawnfest IMO.

No sources but its reading between the lines. I believe the NHL sees the potential revenue form international hockey and any potential challenges to its dominance in the future. So cut things off now and build a proper world cup that you control. Make the World Championship have less meaning then they do now (played when the NHL is still in playoffs) since you have a real world cup. You take the IOC and IIHF out of the picture by as you control the world cup and best on best tournaments.

In order to build a proper world cup and have the hockey federations come to your side you have to show them the money. How do you do that, give them a piece of the pie. For this WCH, the 6 participating federations (Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland and Czech Republic) get $500,000 plus revenues from one pre-tournament game that they hosted, with the NHL and NHLPA picking up all the expenses. Canada and the US get a bonus $250,000 plus split revenues from one pre-tourney game, while the rest of Europe federations (Germany, Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia etc) get to split $500,000 and revenue from one pre-tournament game. The NHL and NHLPA will split an estimated $65 million profit from this tourney.

Get more federations into the tournament means more money for them and win more support for this. If you had 6 more countries in the tournament even if some would be doormats, the money that those federations would get would easily win them over to want to continue the World Cup. Follow the money.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Steveston

Anyone think that there would be any support for U-23 teams (like the FIFA Olympic squads) for the Olympics and a regular WC (in summer Olympic years) made up 8 teams (as suggested earlier, the usual suspects, plus a qualifying round for the remaining spots) with no age restrictions?

This would dramatically change the status of winning a WC vs. an Olympic gold medal - it would be much more like the soccer arrangement. They're both prestigious, but everyone knows that the WC is the real 'best-on-best' tournament (unlike hockey's current situation, where the WC is a gimmick, and Olympic gold is much more coveted -- the Stanley Cup is probably something like winning a Champions League Cup).

Worth considering.

[big W]

Originally Posted by Steveston

Anyone think that there would be any support for U-23 teams (like the FIFA Olympic squads) for the Olympics and a regular WC (in summer Olympic years) made up 8 teams (as suggested earlier, the usual suspects, plus a qualifying round for the remaining spots) with no age restrictions?

This would dramatically change the status of winning a WC vs. an Olympic gold medal - it would be much more like the soccer arrangement. They're both prestigious, but everyone knows that the WC is the real 'best-on-best' tournament (unlike hockey's current situation, where the WC is a gimmick, and Olympic gold is much more coveted -- the Stanley Cup is probably something like winning a Champions League Cup).

I think this is the NHL end game.

In Soccer terms, think of the BPL (highest revenue league) with Real Madrid, Athletico Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Brussia Dortmond, Shelke, Roma, Juventus, Inter Milan, AC Milan, and Paris St Germain (BPL has 20 clubs vs 31 in the NHL).

Then the BPL takes the World Cup from FIFA (which is building the WCH) and the Champions League from UEFA (Stanley Cup Playoffs).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by big W

No sources but its reading between the lines. I believe the NHL sees the potential revenue form international hockey and any potential challenges to its dominance in the future. So cut things off now and build a proper world cup that you control. Make the World Championship have less meaning then they do now (played when the NHL is still in playoffs) since you have a real world cup. You take the IOC and IIHF out of the picture by as you control the world cup and best on best tournaments.

That's fair enough, although European countries are always going to consider World Championships to be the pinnacle of their seasons. Only those in NA lament the lack of true best-on-best due to the length of the NHL season. It's funny how we're always prevented from an actual best-on-best tournament because of either the NHL's schedule or its unwillingness to participate in the Olympics.

This World Cup isn't real because not all eligible national associations are eligible. As of right now the IIHF has every participating nation in a ladder for their World Championship model and it works absolutely fine IMO. The only league that is silly enough to still be operating in May/June is the NHL.

Originally Posted by big W

In order to build a proper world cup and have the hockey federations come to your side you have to show them the money. How do you do that, give them a piece of the pie. For this WCH, the 6 participating federations (Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland and Czech Republic) get $500,000 plus revenues from one pre-tournament game that they hosted, with the NHL and NHLPA picking up all the expenses. Canada and the US get a bonus $250,000 plus split revenues from one pre-tourney game, while the rest of Europe federations (Germany, Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia etc) get to split $500,000 and revenue from one pre-tournament game. The NHL and NHLPA will split an estimated $65 million profit from this tourney.

Again, sources? I'd like confirmation that these numbers aren't just picked out of the sky.

Originally Posted by big W

Get more federations into the tournament means more money for them and win more support for this. If you had 6 more countries in the tournament even if some would be doormats, the money that those federations would get would easily win them over to want to continue the World Cup. Follow the money.

I don't know if there's any guarantee having more federations = more money. A lot of those federations cannot field full NHL-teams and thus, from an advertising standpoint in NA, are dead on arrival in terms of raising revenues from a business standpoint. Unless you're trying to tell me Latvia and Switzerland are going to sell out all their games in Canada/US and have marketable stars on their rosters.

As of right now countries can participate in both the WCH and the WC - it's not as if Canada, US, Russia etc. are dropping out of the WC. I don't see why both competitions cannot work in tandem. In truth I wouldn't mind a WCH every two seasons in August/September but to retain the real, actual World Championships each May. Having the NHL take over the duty of developing hockey internationally via the WCH is terrifying because the NHL's attempt at internationalizing the game (and their brand simultaneously) has been abysmally terrible.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by big W

No sources but its reading between the lines. I believe the NHL sees the potential revenue form international hockey and any potential challenges to its dominance in the future. So cut things off now and build a proper world cup that you control. Make the World Championship have less meaning then they do now (played when the NHL is still in playoffs) since you have a real world cup. You take the IOC and IIHF out of the picture by as you control the world cup and best on best tournaments.

In order to build a proper world cup and have the hockey federations come to your side you have to show them the money. How do you do that, give them a piece of the pie. For this WCH, the 6 participating federations (Canada, US, Russia, Sweden, Finland and Czech Republic) get $500,000 plus revenues from one pre-tournament game that they hosted, with the NHL and NHLPA picking up all the expenses. Canada and the US get a bonus $250,000 plus split revenues from one pre-tourney game, while the rest of Europe federations (Germany, Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia etc) get to split $500,000 and revenue from one pre-tournament game. The NHL and NHLPA will split an estimated $65 million profit from this tourney.

Get more federations into the tournament means more money for them and win more support for this. If you had 6 more countries in the tournament even if some would be doormats, the money that those federations would get would easily win them over to want to continue the World Cup. Follow the money.

This is the exact reason that the NHL went with these fantasy teams in the first place. The tournament isn't about being a real World Cup, it's an NHL All-Star tournament that's meant to showcase NHL star players and make money off them.

It wouldn't be hard to have Germany, Slovakia or the Swiss or Latvians competing in this tournament right now but their teams would be at least 50% non-NHL players, which is why the NHL cut them out. It makes more business sense to have 2 competitive teams of all-star calibre players like Auston Matthews or Anze Kopitar than whoever the hell would be playing on Kopitar's line for Team Slovenia.

The NHL and PA stand to make a tidy bit of change off this event, if there were incentive to have more countries represented ($$ to the NHL and PA) then they would have done it. It makes more sense for them to trim down to 6 nations and 2 "others" right now because it puts more NHL players in the tournament, and that's all this thing is about - maximizing exposure for PA membership and making the most money for them.

There's almost a catch-22 with this format though - because it's a tournament featuring 2 gimmick teams to try and make money off, the meaning is lost for a lot of fans and the only interest might actually be in watching the gimmick team (North America) try to win. If they aren't there, they get replaced by 2 doormats with non-NHL rosters and nobody watches their games but the tournament has more meaning. Maybe next time they'll do a 35 and over team, or maybe a team of players drafted and traded away by the Leafs.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

The tournament isn't about being a real World Cup, it's an NHL All-Star tournament that's meant to showcase NHL star players and make money.

The most accurate description I've read to date. Basically a multi-team NHL ASG on steroids.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The most accurate description I've read to date. Basically a multi-team NHL ASG on steroids.

It's at least semi-brilliant marketing, when you think about it.

[big W]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Again, sources? I'd like confirmation that these numbers aren't just picked out of the sky.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...get-the-crumbs

[big W]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

This is the exact reason that the NHL went with these fantasy teams in the first place. The tournament isn't about being a real World Cup, it's an NHL All-Star tournament that's meant to showcase NHL star players and make money off them.

It wouldn't be hard to have Germany, Slovakia or the Swiss or Latvians competing in this tournament right now but their teams would be at least 50% non-NHL players, which is why the NHL cut them out. It makes more business sense to have 2 competitive teams of all-star calibre players like Auston Matthews or Anze Kopitar than whoever the hell would be playing on Kopitar's line for Team Slovenia.

The NHL and PA stand to make a tidy bit of change off this event, if there were incentive to have more countries represented ($$ to the NHL and PA) then they would have done it. It makes more sense for them to trim down to 6 nations and 2 "others" right now because it puts more NHL players in the tournament, and that's all this thing is about - maximizing exposure for PA membership and making the most money for them.

There's almost a catch-22 with this format though - because it's a tournament featuring 2 gimmick teams to try and make money off, the meaning is lost for a lot of fans and the only interest might actually be in watching the gimmick team (North America) try to win. If they aren't there, they get replaced by 2 doormats with non-NHL rosters and nobody watches their games but the tournament has more meaning. Maybe next time they'll do a 35 and over team, or maybe a team of players drafted and traded away by the Leafs.

That's true, but in order to wrestle things away from the IIHF and other leagues you must diminish the stature of WC held every year. The best way is to help generate money for the federations themselves so that they see the WCH as the premier event as that is what gives them the money. Revenue from the occasional qualification game and pre-tournament games as well as money to each federation in the tournament.

By having the gimmick teams it might make interest in the short term, but if the goal is a long term one, helping the federations is the best way to go and that means building up the game through the WCH so that the NHL and NHLPA will always remain the top and total control. I again see the gimmick teams dropped in the near future. Not necessary for 2020 but if you have one in 2024 in Europe then for sure at that one.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by big W

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...get-the-crumbs

As the article points out, and its author, $500KUSD for participating national federations isn't a whole lot of money for them, even if the NHL/NHLPA are covering their tournament costs. They still have to cover the wages of their staff and trainers, plus stipends for working during international tournament. How much of that $500K do you think the federation actually gets in the end? This is beside the point that two of the teams aren't even federation teams to begin with.

Hosting a World Championship can bring a host nation far more revenue, such as when the Czechs made a pre-tax profit of nearly 17M Euros when they hosted the 2015 World Championships. Of course, that's total profit from the tournament, but the National Federation is funded by the government, so there's revenue-splitting measures in place.

You're never going to see a World Cup of Hockey hosted in Europe, so it would be wiser for national federations to focus on an event that has a higher impact on them (the Worlds) than an event created solely to make money for the NHL & NHLPA. France and Germany will both be making revenue off of the Worlds in 2017 and neither of those federations were even given the courtesy to attempt to qualify for the WCH.

Again, more federations does not mean more money because only so many federations have enough NHL talent. The NHL isn't going to let Latvia/Germany/France/Slovenia in simply because their teams are primarily made up of non-NHLers. If you have them playing a qualifying tournament for a meager $500KUSD they're simply spending more money and resources to bring back even less in the end. It's a non-starter. What happens if Germany/France spend money in an attempt to qualify for an event when the only possibility of maybe making a profit on the whole venture is to qualify? What happens when they don't qualify? The NHL doesn't care about them regardless and they're better off with the IIHF.

[manny_santos]

On TV I'm noticing the ads on the boards keep changing every time there's a camera switch, and these ads look distorted whenever there's a closeup. I'm finding this distracting.

[TownGuy]

It's super distracting. Some sort of CGI thing going on.

Also notice a SAP advertisement on the shoulder of the jerseys. It's beginning...

[JHikka]

It's a corporate tournament run by a corporation brought to you by corporations. Wondering why you guys are moaning about advertisements. NHL doesn't really care if it bothers you because it's all $$$ in the bank.

I think the cgi boards are neat and jersey ads are bound to happen.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Olympics are being held in two interesting markets for hockey (not the NHL), particularly China as they have a new KHL franchise. Korea has been managing alright with their hockey development but it still has a way to go.

I've always thought that China had enormous growth potential for hockey, especially in the north. It has the climate for it and obviously the population. Beijing's winters are barely warmer than Toronto's and Harbin is colder than even Winnipeg. Even if hockey is only popular as a regional niche sport the way it is in the States, China could still become one of the best hockey countries. The KHL clearly sees the potential with their Beijing team. The NHL may not directly have a stake in hockey taking off in China but as the world's premier league surely they can find a way to benefit from it. You can bet that Europe's big soccer leagues would love to do more business in the United States, even if they will never have teams there. And NFL certainly benefits from football's popularity in Canada.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I've always thought that China had enormous growth potential for hockey, especially in the north. It has the climate for it and obviously the population. Beijing's winters are barely warmer than Toronto's and Harbin is colder than even Winnipeg. Even if hockey is only popular as a regional niche sport the way it is in the States, China could still become one of the best hockey countries. The KHL clearly sees the potential with their Beijing team. The NHL may not directly have a stake in hockey taking off in China but as the world's premier league surely they can find a way to benefit from it. You can bet that Europe's big soccer leagues would love to do more business in the United States, even if they will never have teams there. And NFL certainly benefits from football's popularity in Canada.

Definitely agree on China, which is why it's mystifying that the NHL hasn't further considered expanding its market in China. They've done nothing I can think of in that regard. The KHL at least gets it amongst their continent-conquering.

As for the NHL traveling to Beijing 2022 it isn't so much about having exposure to the Chinese (because hockey will be played regardless of NHL participation) but rather how much money the NHL can make off of sending its players. By taking two weeks off they're losing valuable revenue in the middle of the winter, and there's no guarantee they make that back with Beijing. Tack on the fact that the games will be on in the middle of the night for the States and you're starting to get a poor formula for success, at least in their eyes.

The Premier League has a lot of interest in China because China is it's biggest TV market by far.

----------

As for the WCH2016 North America ruined Finland last night which says more about the power of the NA team than it does about Finland, whose defence is less experienced than NA's. Finland's going through some definite growing pains on the national team right now and are missing veteran Defenceman who play in Europe.

North America/Russia this evening should be infinitely interesting.

[mistercorporate]

Bumped into a bunch of Swedish hockey fans in full jerseys walking downtown after the TFC match, what a fantastic group of people, really lived up to the open minded stereotype. Can't believe they flew all the way from Sweden to watch this, the Cup is a bigger deal than i thought.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Yeah – I was at the kick-off party in the Distillery on Friday night – there were lots of Swedes and Finns there

[osmo]

CGI boards need some work. You can tell this Tourney is testing ground for all types of new gizmos. To bad they didn't test out reduced pads here as well...

I again go on about the corporate might behind this tourney. This is what happens when you get Americans to run things, this WCOH is the most obnoxious sporting event I have seen in Canada. The marketing dollars put into this thing rival anything aside from the Olympics. Even the Pan-Am games was not nearly as obnoxious here in the market. That was public side ran vs this one which is all private.

Not that the games re up and running everybody in this city knows this thing is going on. The tickets are priced well so most games have a good crowd. The hockey is another story, with tons of blowouts so far.

I keep thinking overall this would be a good case study for the CFL to learn what you have to throw at the Toronto market to get its attention. CFL for the Grey Cup should have the same level of exposure with a fan fest (which has surprised me how large in scope it is) and obnoxious branding to the point you can't escape the idea that the Grey Cup is in this city. They attempted this with the 100th but they would need to keep the same level or go beyond it IMO.


Back to hockey...

All the comments on the future of this make sense but what about the NHLPA? As long as the players are partners and getting a cut of the pie you will only see NHLPA players playing.

Maybe you get to the point where more Euros are in and you just make two Europe teams or something. Not sure how you skate around the NHLPA issue. You all really think this thing can get to the point where small rump teams can feed in the same profits vs the top NHL players on each team?

IMO the World Baseball Classic would be the middle ground or end game. MLB runs a legit qualification round for each region prior and they are very lax of what MLB players can play for what team (Team Israel for example with a stacked team). But MLB benefits to the fact that baseball has well developed regions in Latin America and Asia that can produce a good abundance of good teams each cycle. Hockey is not there yet.