Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[eternallyme]

IMO, OC Transpo should keep the Talent trains to allow for an extension to the south or to Gatineau to proceed; such would require at least 6 to 8 (depending on lengths) train sets on the tracks at once during peak periods.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

IMO, OC Transpo should keep the Talent trains to allow for an extension to the south or to Gatineau to proceed; such would require at least 6 to 8 (depending on lengths) train sets on the tracks at once during peak periods.

I don't remember the price they will be looking for when selling the old fleet, but I'm sure it won't be worth it. I'm still not a fan of the extension to Gatineau (too many transfers for most; I would prefer converting the POW to bus transitway), but we could find other uses such as extension south, further service increases (add Walkley/Gladstone stations and double track Carling), future commuter rail service...

[JM1]

I would like any connection to Gatineau that is within the city centre for transit. The problem is that the BRT that Gatineau is building is not an urban system... It is fully suburban. If they could find a ay to bring the brt to chauffeured or Alexandra bridge that would be preferable. But they have taken the cheap route, so prince of wales and bay view it is. I USB Gatineau had made better choices and brought their system right to the centre of the city, but they didn't.

Perhaps the best bet is my gondola circulator system which connected rideau. The rapid bus, the chauffeured islands and bay view all at once. That would be a great connection.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't remember the price they will be looking for when selling the old fleet, but I'm sure it won't be worth it. I'm still not a fan of the extension to Gatineau (too many transfers for most; I would prefer converting the POW to bus transitway), but we could find other uses such as extension south, further service increases (add Walkley/Gladstone stations and double track Carling), future commuter rail service...

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

IMO, OC Transpo should keep the Talent trains to allow for an extension to the south or to Gatineau to proceed; such would require at least 6 to 8 (depending on lengths) train sets on the tracks at once during peak periods.

I think it's very likely that the new TMP will recommend that the O-Train be extended to Leitrim and Bowesville (Riverside South) in 2018 once the Confederation Line opens, and the Talents will be retained/refurbished for that purpose.

This is basically what the 2012 report on this recommended: https://app06.ottawa.ca/calendar/ott...on%20Study.htm

As a south-end resident, I wish we could have full electric LRT from day one, but I don't think it's a possibility until the full system to Baseline and possibly Orleans is in place, which is many years off. An O-Train extension is probably the best way to deliver good transit in the relatively near term.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't remember the price they will be looking for when selling the old fleet, but I'm sure it won't be worth it. I'm still not a fan of the extension to Gatineau (too many transfers for most; I would prefer converting the POW to bus transitway), but we could find other uses such as extension south, further service increases (add Walkley/Gladstone stations and double track Carling), future commuter rail service...

"Too many transfers for most" is not a valid reason: it still greatly improves transit options for many.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

"Too many transfers for most" is not a valid reason: it still greatly improves transit options for many.

Extending to Gatineau:

* Allows for a direct connection to Rapibus without having to run extra buses into downtown Ottawa, reducing the number of buses required on Wellington and Rideau Streets.

* Reduces transfers, and saves significant time, for those who live in the south end and work in Gatineau (i.e. Portage, Chaudière)

* Significantly reduces the number of buses required on the Chaudière Bridge (they could take the O-Train instead of the 105)

* For those who live in Gatineau and work at Confederation Heights (there are many), it saves an enormous amount of time and at least one transfer for most

* Attractive for redevelopment in downtown Gatineau, perhaps for cheaper rental or purchase housing, as well as for Carleton students

* The infrastructure is mostly there so it just requires rehabilitation and possibly a passing track on Lemieux Island.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Extending to Gatineau:

* Allows for a direct connection to Rapibus without having to run extra buses into downtown Ottawa, reducing the number of buses required on Wellington and Rideau Streets.

* Reduces transfers, and saves significant time, for those who live in the south end and work in Gatineau (i.e. Portage, Chaudière)

* Significantly reduces the number of buses required on the Chaudière Bridge (they could take the O-Train instead of the 105)

* For those who live in Gatineau and work at Confederation Heights (there are many), it saves an enormous amount of time and at least one transfer for most

* Attractive for redevelopment in downtown Gatineau, perhaps for cheaper rental or purchase housing, as well as for Carleton students

* The infrastructure is mostly there so it just requires rehabilitation and possibly a passing track on Lemieux Island.

Extending the O-Train to Leitrim or Place du Portage or both will make a second class service to the south end permanent. It is already likely permanent. There will be no incentive to double track and electrify the service and if there is thought of conversion, it will be quickly discarded because of the inability to maintain a reasonable quality of service during conversion. Ridership from the south will permanently be reduced because of the lack of direct service to downtown and the limitations on service frequency dictated by a single track system. Double tracking will not be possible without a major closure of the line despite the opinions of some to the contrary. Those are strictly opinions which I do not believe. The reliabilty of connections will not always be good because of the liklihood of crush loading of the Confederation Line at Bayview. This will be especially the case if we attempt to have transfers from both the south and Gatineau at the same station.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I think it's very likely that the new TMP will recommend that the O-Train be extended to Leitrim and Bowesville (Riverside South) in 2018 once the Confederation Line opens, and the Talents will be retained/refurbished for that purpose.

This is basically what the 2012 report on this recommended: https://app06.ottawa.ca/calendar/ott...on%20Study.htm

As a south-end resident, I wish we could have full electric LRT from day one, but I don't think it's a possibility until the full system to Baseline and possibly Orleans is in place, which is many years off. An O-Train extension is probably the best way to deliver good transit in the relatively near term.

Wasn't the city changing their minds earlier this year and they are intending to build only a busway from Leitrim to Riverside South. What's another transfer anyways?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

"Too many transfers for most" is not a valid reason: it still greatly improves transit options for many.

We would need specific numbers of how many potential RapiBus users work along the O-Train line compared to Downtown Ottawa and how many people who live on the O-Train line work in Hull or on the RapiBus line. I don't think the numbers justify the investment, but then again, I don't know the numbers.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There will be no incentive to double track and electrify the service and if there is thought of conversion, it will be quickly discarded because of the inability to maintain a reasonable quality of service during conversion. Ridership from the south will permanently be reduced because of the lack of direct service to downtown and the limitations on service frequency dictated by a single track system. Double tracking will not be possible without a major closure of the line despite the opinions of some to the contrary. Those are strictly opinions which I do not believe.

There are only 2 reasons for the current shut down of the O-Train during the current service expansion. One being that the job can be completed faster and the other is that OC Transpo does not have the expertise to run a railway while performing construction. All the work could be done at night or on weekends and much of it such as grading work for the new sidings could be done without any disruption of service other than a slow speed order through the construction zone. Even the future potential replacement of crossing diamonds at Confederation and at the access to Walkley Yard can be done with no disruption of service. One only needs to look at the cancellation of service during the bomb scare at Bayview in the spring to see that OC Transpo can't seem to figure out how to run a railway.

Forget about trying to have single rides everywhere transit users want to go. Even the best transit systems in the world require multiple transfers. It is the frequency of service that makes the transfers acceptable to users. Ottawa is not a one horse town now so start accepting the fact.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We would need specific numbers of how many potential RapiBus users work along the O-Train line compared to Downtown Ottawa and how many people who live on the O-Train line work in Hull or on the RapiBus line. I don't think the numbers justify the investment, but then again, I don't know the numbers.

No. Not just people who live on the line. Also people who'd be able to conveniently transfer to/from the train at Bayview or Greenboro or a future Walkley, or a WHY ISN'T THERE A GLADSTONE ALREADY, on their way to/from Hull.

The original O-train ridership estimates were apparently blown out of the water, especially WRT Carleton service; the same thing would happen with a Hull extension.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

It is the frequency of service that makes the transfers acceptable to users.

Frequency of service, and comfort/ease of making those transfers. OC Transpo sucks at that latter service goal, too.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

There are only 2 reasons for the current shut down of the O-Train during the current service expansion. One being that the job can be completed faster and the other is that OC Transpo does not have the expertise to run a railway while performing construction. All the work could be done at night or on weekends and much of it such as grading work for the new sidings could be done without any disruption of service other than a slow speed order through the construction zone. Even the future potential replacement of crossing diamonds at Confederation and at the access to Walkley Yard can be done with no disruption of service. One only needs to look at the cancellation of service during the bomb scare at Bayview in the spring to see that OC Transpo can't seem to figure out how to run a railway.

Forget about trying to have single rides everywhere transit users want to go. Even the best transit systems in the world require multiple transfers. It is the frequency of service that makes the transfers acceptable to users. Ottawa is not a one horse town now so start accepting the fact.

And you make my point perfectly. Reality does not match theory. I have heard this countless times before that upgrades can take place without service interruption. If that is valid, why has it not happened after multiple shutdowns of the O-Train over the years? Are suggesting incompetence? If that is the case, why has the press not gotten involved? Why are our politicians not paying the price?

And the fact of the matter is that Ottawa is not in a position to fund service frequency that you talk about. You are comparing Ottawa with cities such as New York, Toronto, London, and Paris. Even on busy corridors, service frequency in Ottawa is only 15 minutes or less during off-peak hours. This makes multiple transfers unacceptable and totally uncompetitive with car travel. We are building a very expensive commuter service and multiple transfers will discourage ridership growth in off-peak hours. TTC studies confirm ridership loss with multiple transfers even where service is very frequent.

I am not advocating a single ride system, which is clearly not sustainable. However, if you want our downtown to be vibrant, our transit system must have more than one route (besides local service) serving it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No. Not just people who live on the line. Also people who'd be able to conveniently transfer to/from the train at Bayview or Greenboro or a future Walkley, or a WHY ISN'T THERE A GLADSTONE ALREADY, on their way to/from Hull.

The original O-train ridership estimates were apparently blown out of the water, especially WRT Carleton service; the same thing would happen with a Hull extension.

O-Train ridership has pretty well reached its max based on the current route limitations. If we want the O-Train to reach its maximum potential, the route needs to be extended into downtown and southward and vital missing stations on the existing route need to be added. Why were these missing stations not included in the current major upgrade?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Reality does not match theory. I have heard this countless times before that upgrades can take place without service interruption. If that is valid, why has it not happened after multiple shutdowns of the O-Train over the years? Are suggesting incompetence?

This is what I am alluding to. I am suggesting incompetence by not hiring personnel that know the industry. OC Transpo is going to have to have practice and practice different service failure scenarios when LRT is up and running.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

And the fact of the matter is that Ottawa is not in a position to fund service frequency that you talk about. You are comparing Ottawa with cities such as New York, Toronto, London, and Paris. Even on busy corridors, service frequency in Ottawa is only 15 minutes or less during off-peak hours. This makes multiple transfers unacceptable and totally uncompetitive with car travel. We are building a very expensive commuter service and multiple transfers will discourage ridership growth in off-peak hours. TTC studies confirm ridership loss with multiple transfers even where service is very frequent.

What is most important is the transit time during the peak hours. The Confederation line will run every 3 minutes and the O train every 8 minutes resulting in very little time to transfer from one line to another. While waiting for a bus that never comes is not a transfer, it is still time that is added to the total commute time. With LRT, the service should be more reliable, reducing waiting time and the transfer to the O Train will be shorter. This should result in faster travel times. The fact that another transfer is required to get to your ultimate destination is a function of bus frequency. This final transfer maybe currently required depending upon your destination.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am not advocating a single ride system, which is clearly not sustainable. However, if you want our downtown to be vibrant, our transit system must have more than one route (besides local service) serving it.

If you are not advocating a single ride system then what are you proposing or are you just complaining about everything LRT related?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Double tracking will not be possible without a major closure of the line despite the opinions of some to the contrary. Those are strictly opinions which I do not believe.

Yes, we know, you choose to believe the claims of the City and its favourite BRT consultants rather than opening your mind and looking at railway operators the world over. The fact is, whether you choose to believe it or not, there are ways to expand and upgrade existing lines without shutting them down for months on end.

The current work, for instance, pales in comparison to the work done in 2003 to replace the jointed rails with CWR. 16 km of rail had to be delivered and 16 km of jointed rail taken up. The old rails had to be released from their spikes and the new rail spiked down. They also took the opportunity to replace hundreds of old ties. That work took a few weeks. And what are we doing now? Adding a couple of sidings and some switches and maybe carrying out a bit of other work elsewhere. 3 weeks for all that versus 4 months for a piddly collection of additional sidings and switches?

Back in 2003, it was busy busy busy every day because they had a schedule to keep to. Now, they're going about it lackadaisically because they've got all the time in the world to do a minor job and no pressure.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If we want the O-Train to reach its maximum potential, the route needs to be extended into downtown and southward and vital missing stations on the existing route need to be added. Why were these missing stations not included in the current major upgrade?

While I don't agree that the O-Train necessarily needs to be extended to downtown, I do agree that Walkley and Gladstone should have been added as part of this improvement as suggested by other posts on here.
To my way of thinking the O Train needs to be at least extended to Gatineau and the airport. Unfortunately this could be a long time coming.

[eternallyme]

In order to directly serve downtown from the south, an new north-south route is required. The only logical routing is Bank Street, since the Southeast Transitway and current O-Train cannot be connected without creating new capacity issues downtown (already looking at two lines from the west - one from Kanata, one from Barrhaven - and perhaps two lines to the east) and an awkward service connection. By sending either the O-Train or the SE Transitway (as rail) onto the central corridor, it once again creates capacity issues in terms of train frequency. In addition, it precludes a valuable O-Train extension to Gatineau.

Remember, the Rapibus -> O-Train connection, for many, would reduce transfers by one (and would surely be a timesaver even if the same number of transfers are required), and also reduces the number of buses necessary on Rideau and Wellington Streets by moving the transfer from the Rideau Centre to Tache/UQO. From central Gatineau, it would be DIRECT service to Carleton University and Confederation Heights, in less than 15 minutes (currently, it involves at least one transfer, sometimes two + at least 40 minutes on the bus or train plus waiting or walking time; you can't even drive that stretch in 15 minutes). That would likely be attractive to new home renters and buyers. It would also be attractive to commercial establishments after the Preston/Carling area is built out, providing a quick link to entertainment and possibly new retail options. Even if they need to transfer, they would no longer need to go to downtown Ottawa to do it (again a big timesaver).

In the long term, a Bank Street subway needs to be considered, as that would provide the most direct service into downtown and through high-density areas. Likely that would be concurrent with the alignment along Rideau Street and Montreal Road.

I strongly agree, though, that stations at Gladstone and Walkley are necessary. Gladstone would bring residential development to that area which is sorely lacking west of Little Italy, while Walkley would bring additional ridership and development to the middle Bank Street area (already seeing growth).

[McC]

and don't forget South Keys, for a walk-on connection to the eventually-to-be-completed pedestrian bridge over the Airport Parkway.

[rocketphish]

NCC says any above-ground western LRT plan ‘ain’t gonna fly’

‘Just accept it’ city told after presenting most recent plan at public meeting

By Teresa Smith, OTTAWA CITIZEN June 28, 2013 11:18 AM

OTTAWA — The National Capital Commission’s board seems unlikely to accept any western light-rail proposal for its lands that doesn’t run completely underground.

City of Ottawa officials presented their most recent version of a western LRT plan to the NCC’s board at a public meeting Thursday. The proposed route would run for 1.2 kilometres along NCC property by the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway between Dominion Transitway station and Cleary Avenue, with 700 metres set partially underground between Rochester Field and Cleary Station.

Nearby residents and the NCC have expressed concern from the beginning that light rail along the parkway would spoil the area and impact neighbours. The city was not seeking approval from the board Thursday but wanted to hear conditions and requirements from members about what they could and could not accept in the proposal. And though the board deferred a decision until a Friday meeting, comments from its members made clear they’re unlikely to go for any proposal that runs rail above ground along NCC land.

“Why not bite the bullet, and try to find the money somewhere else to put the last 500 metres underground?” asked NCC chair Russell Mills.

“Of course it’s feasible,” said board member Jacquelin Holzman. “They built the Chunnel — so it’s down to cost, and it’s up to the city to decide.

“And, frankly, I am not willing to give up anything because of the city’s financial problems.”

Deputy city manager Nancy Schepers said the city doesn’t “have an endless budget — it would compromise our ability to do other things. The minute we start adding and putting all of our money into this line, we can’t even consider putting a line south to Bayshore. The money has been established. I think it’s generous. I think we can be creative and we can find solutions.”

The city has estimated the cost of the current proposal at $980 million, an increase of $80 million over a plan presented in April because of the cost of burying the 700-metre stretch of the line. The city’s lead consultant on the project has estimated the cost of running rail through a trench in Rochester Field and under Richmond Road at $1.3 billion, and of burying the LRT for the length of Rochester Field at $1.7 billion.

But while some board members said they could see no real difference between the plan proposed Thursday and ones presented earlier in the process, project manager David Hopper said the proposed route from Bayview to Baseline included “major enhancements” such as the underground stretch, moving Dominion station several metres away from houses at Dominion and Berkeley avenues and a pathway network through Rochester Field that would maintain the parkland and improve pedestrian access to the riverfront.

Another change, he said, was that Cleary Station would have a green roof, not an open-air roof as previously proposed.

“People walking along the field or driving on the parkway would not see the rails,” said Hopper, who is also an engineer.

Every effort would be made to mask the WLRT as much as possible “through the strategic use of trees,” painting poles brown and using copper wires. “It’s been successfully done in many locations” in Europe, he said.

But, for many, the line had already been drawn.

“This ain’t gonna fly at all,” said board member Eric MacKenzie, who wanted to make clear that the route will not happen without NCC approval. “It isn’t going to work. Just accept it.”

But, Schepers said, “If there’s no funding or it’s too expensive, we’ll continue to have our buses on the parkway, just as we do today.”

The board chose to debate the city’s proposal at a private meeting Friday, which it will then present it to the public at 3 p.m.

The city is hoping to send a final western LRT proposal to the city’s transport committee on July 10, and to city council on July 17.
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