Winnipeg | Forks Redevelopment | Parcel 4 - Rail Side Initiative | Proposals

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by Hecate

I wouldn’t put any housing there at all. There’s no need for it to be there in the first place. The forks has existed and thrived for thirty years without housing. It doesn’t need it now. Who determines what builders get to participate? Is it a lottery?. All I see is free government land being offered to private condo developers. Most of whom are probably friends with the forks board members.

This is a pretty comically uninformed post.

Perhaps the only solution is to restore the forks to its true potential - a dirty, toxic rail yard!

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

Doesn't need to be European dense, but something like around La Vivrière in QC would be good. Small courtyard, a few parking spots surrounded by mixed scale buildings.

I am excited for this development as well although I think it should be much higher and denser. I would have preferred to see ten 12 to 15 storey buildings adding additional vitality to the area.While some units may be condos I suspect most will be rental buildings.

It’s a good start.

Two thumbs up!

[trueviking]

why would one assume these are only condos for rich people? That is absolutely not the case. Before the pause, the developers lined up were providing a wide range of housing, student, affordable, short term rentals, apartments and condos. It was specifically coordinated to not be 'condos for rich people'

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

Doesn't need to be European dense, but something like around La Vivrière in QC would be good. Small courtyard, a few parking spots surrounded by mixed scale buildings.

isnt that what it is?

I dont know how the criticism of this is that it isn't dense enough...i think it will be uncomfortably dense for most winnipeggers.

....but density isn't the only consideration. Quality of the public space is also important.



If the buildings were taller the density would drop and quality of space would be diminished. The scheme before this one was high rises and the density was lower and urban quality significantly diminished.

[Kris22]

Hopefully there's room for restaurants to bump out patios into the squares. I remember being in a cool square in small-town France that had the whole centre area as patio spaces for the restaurants and bars, with the perimeter being the walkway. It made it feel like a big communal patio with people all dining right near each other even if they are guests at different restaurants.

Also things like strings of lights hanging across alleyways really goes a long way for creating atmosphere.

I imagine this whole vibe could take years to take off but I think it's going to be really cool in the end.

[bomberjet]

^I would hope that's exactly what it will be.

And not turn into standalone suburban feeling buildings. With no CRU's and just blank walls. That'd be terrible.

[Kris22]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

^I would hope that's exactly what it will be.

And not turn into standalone suburban feeling buildings. With no CRU's and just blank walls. That'd be terrible.

I think the CRUs will be mandatory for the buildings facing the squares? I'm not sure if this was officially mentioned as part of the plan, but I thought it was the whole point of this design. It's just a matter of filling that many spaces with businesses...which is why it's definitely best to do this in phases so there aren't like 30 empty commercial spots all at once.

Edit: https://www.railsideattheforks.com The images on their website seem to fit with what we are talking about. Hopefully the plan pans out!

There's also a long and detailed concept plan that answers all our questions https://www.railsideattheforks.com/u...-plan-2017.pdf

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Kris22

Hopefully there's room for restaurants to bump out patios into the squares. I remember being in a cool square in small-town France that had the whole centre area as patio spaces for the restaurants and bars, with the perimeter being the walkway. It made it feel like a big communal patio with people all dining right near each other even if they are guests at different restaurants.

Also things like strings of lights hanging across alleyways really goes a long way for creating atmosphere.

I imagine this whole vibe could take years to take off but I think it's going to be really cool in the end.

This is 100% the goal. Commercial spaces are intentionally pushed to the courtyards for that reason.

[trueviking]

A good comparison here. Which equal density makes a better neighbourhood?

[Kris22]

I was just looking at an old photo of the rail yard, and it's too bad those three brick buildings weren't saved when the tracks were removed. They would've provided a great anchor to the north side of this new development and added some character and history to the site. I realize that would've required some major foresight and a plan for their usage up until now, which is pretty unrealistic considering they would've been in the middle of a barren parking lot for like 50 years, but it's still fun to think about. I can totally picture a brewery and a boutique hotel taking up two of those.

I hope the new architecture plays with textures and has enough detail to create an interesting visual environment. Nothing too bland and minimal. Because creating charm when starting totally from scratch can be a difficult thing...even an abandoned block of the exchange district has more charm than most newly built neighbourhoods.

[esquire]

^ Even if they couldn't have saved all of them it would have been nice if they could have saved one. But alas.

I do recall those buildings looked to be in terrible shape by the time they were demolished in the mid 80s. I'm pretty sure they were semi-abandoned going back to the 60s once Symington Yards opened up and East Yards became more or less obsolete and used mainly for storing CN's junk and extra equipment. They weren't totally abandoned, but they didn't look like they were occupied or even maintained anymore.

I suppose their condition wasn't much different than the buildings that were preserved (Forks Market, Johnston Terminal, Children's Museum, Steam Plant) but in that case there was money to renovate that group right away. Keeping those old buildings around for another 35+ years until FNP was ready to do something with them might have been tough to pull off. Even though, as you pointed out, the end result probably would have been awesome.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by trueviking

A good comparison here. Which equal density makes a better neighbourhood?

It's not the density I'm worried about, it's a rather worthless metric. It's the (what I perceive as) inconsistent nature of building placement.

The zigzag nature of it worries me, and the space between each and every lot. I don't see a need to have every single plaza/corridor zigzag, which is my interpretation of this picture. Straight streets work just fine, curved streets work just fine, but it looks like every corridor will turn at a 90 degree angle. I think it'll create too many terminating vistas... Is that what we want?

I am in 100% agreement with the building heights.

[bomberjet]

It seems they do want the terminating vistas. Offset grid is what it's called in the report.

With the main floors of all buildings being public used spaces. There was one image in the report that showed a building which the main floor corner was cut. Creating straighter access pedestrian access.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

It seems they do want the terminating vistas. Offset grid is what it's called in the report.

With the main floors of all buildings being public used spaces. There was one image in the report that showed a building which the main floor corner was cut. Creating straighter access pedestrian access.

I'll have to read the concept plan. Maybe it'll work

[bomberjet]

To pack in more lots. Straight is definitely more efficient. This offset grid thing is interesting though as it should create some different sized courtyard spaces.

I'm kind of indifferent. I think it looks cool in concept. If it can be pulled off, should be a neat area.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Fibre can get as low as 17 milliseconds.

I have rural fiber. 4 to 5 ms.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

It's not the density I'm worried about, it's a rather worthless metric. It's the (what I perceive as) inconsistent nature of building placement.

The zigzag nature of it worries me, and the space between each and every lot. I don't see a need to have every single plaza/corridor zigzag, which is my interpretation of this picture. Straight streets work just fine, curved streets work just fine, but it looks like every corridor will turn at a 90 degree angle. I think it'll create too many terminating vistas... Is that what we want?

I am in 100% agreement with the building heights.

fair comment. It is definitely intentional but your concern is warranted.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by trueviking

fair comment. It is definitely intentional but your concern is warranted.

Yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to show me an example of a successful urban neighbourhood with a layout like this. I've seen it described as "European", but even medieval European city centres still mostly have the buildings arranged along streets that provide natural paths for pedestrians to walk along (with squares and terminal vistas sprinkled in here and there).

I dunno. Hopefully it'll work. But I wish we could've followed a proven model for a successful pedestrian precinct rather than coming up with our own original Made In Manitoba version of what an urban village should look like.

[buzzg]

I can actually see the benefit of this arrangement based on the fact it makes it difficult to cycle through, I think that’s good. Cyclists speeding through there to get to the Esplanade when its supposed to be quiet with patios and relaxing etc. could be a problem. If they still plan on converting one lane of Forks market road to active transportation, then it makes sense.

I’m saying this as someone who uses all modes of transportation, including a lot of cycling in summer, and realized there are many cyclist we don’t give a shit about anyone else on the road or sidewalk or path.

Call Jordan is also notoriously anti-signage, and is a big believer in physical design leading to the use you want.

[Kris22]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Yeah, I'm still waiting for someone to show me an example of a successful urban neighbourhood with a layout like this. I've seen it described as "European", but even medieval European city centres still mostly have the buildings arranged along streets that provide natural paths for pedestrians to walk along (with squares and terminal vistas sprinkled in here and there).

I dunno. Hopefully it'll work. But I wish we could've followed a proven model for a successful pedestrian precinct rather than coming up with our own original Made In Manitoba version of what an urban village should look like.

There is going to be a pedestrian and active transportation promenade that is in a straight line, directly beside this. Not to mention the straight street that will be directly on the other side of this.

If you look at through the concept plan, this is not some maze of offset buildings. It's 4 or 5 buildings facing a square. Then another 4 or 5 buildings facing a square. If you were to look down one of the alleys, you'd see that one way leads to the next square, or leads out to the promenade or to the back street/parking.

If this was on a large scale I imagine the zig-zagging could get tiresome or confusing, but I can't imagine anyone getting frustrated by accidentally ending up on the promenade instead of in another square. It's like when you walk around other parts of the Forks...it's not straight forward of clear where to go...you just wander and check it out.

I imagine the residents of the buildings will use the back street to get in and out quickly, and people out exercising or whatever can use the new promenade. There's also the east-west path from Union Station to the bridge that goes through the middle of this.

I stayed in a neighbourhood called Le Panier in Marseille that is known for its totally irregular and confusing tiny streets and squares and it really is a cool feeling not knowing what's around the next corner. It's something you just don't get with straight streets, no matter how bustling they are.