Complete Street Policy

[Feathered Friend]

As this is going to be a continuing topic, I decided to create a thread for the Complete Street Policy.

Next up on the City's agenda is Georgia Gateway West:

http://vancouver.ca/streets-transpor...eway-west.aspx

Georgia Street is an important gateway into Vancouver. Every day, it welcomes thousands of people into the city for work, to visit, and to and from Stanley Park. It also connects people to three neighbourhoods – the West End, Coal Harbour and Downtown.
But traffic can be a challenge for people driving and taking transit, and the street can be uninviting for people walking and cycling.
We are beginning a transportation planning process for Georgia Street, from Chilco St to Nicola St. We want to explore how to make Georgia a Complete Street that welcomes people of all ages, abilities, and modes of travel.
We are looking for solutions that will:

• Improve safety along Georgia Street
• Make sustainable travel choices more reliable, comfortable, and enjoyable
• Enhance walking and cycling connections to Stanley Park, West End, Coal Harbour, and Downtown
• Ensure access to and from homes and businesses
• Celebrate Georgia Street as a gateway to the city
• Make Georgia Street a more clear and predictable street

"Walkshop" Registration (November 18th)
https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/georgia-...f=enivtefor001

Open House Details (November 18th)
http://vancouver.ca/news-calendar/ge...vember-18.aspx

Survey (Closes December 2nd)
https://www.talkvancouver.com/R.aspx...&as=Ij2xg27gH8

As of tonight, there are 38 spots still open on the walking tour/workshop.

[Feathered Friend]

Group 1
Redacted to protect personal info








Group 2








After waking up too early for a Saturday morning, I went down to Devonian Park for the walking tour. Above is the notes staff took from two of three walking tour groups. While there were 3 groups of roughly a dozen people each, the tours were all the same. Afterwards, everyone was encouraged to either fill out a comment form on the spot, or to attend the open house later on in the day. One major fact I learned was that the counter-flow lane on Georgia is controlled by the city according to a timed schedule, while the Lion's Gate portion is controlled by the province and monitored so it can be switched to reflect traffic volume. There is also a counter flow lane for a short amount of space on Pender, which really just feels like an autobody shop had a hand in that design.

The agenda from the city seems to be the following:

No Roads being turned into bike lanes
1. Perhaps most importantly to some on here, there will be no closure of car/transit lanes to implement bike lanes. Rather, they will be located in setback for the streetcar. There will be a oneway bike lane on both the north and south sides of Georgia.
2.There's a clear awareness that there is too much signage, and that it needs to be cleared up.

Pender and Georgia intersection to Change
3.Another big change are the plans to alter the Georgia + Pender Street intersection. No longer will it be that silly triangular intersection. Rather, Pender will have a new elbow-turn to allow for a T-intersection, as well as additional space for the flag courtyard. Keep in mind, this is one of the worst intersections in the city, so it is likely anything will improve the situation.
4.The public space/access on the North side of Georgia, between Cardero and Denman, will be improved to create a better indication that it is actually public space.
5.The counter flow lane on Pender will be eliminated. Why this existed in the first place is beyond me!

The BIG ONE!
6.The counter-flow lane on Georgia Street will be eliminated.
Instead, the lane will be converted into an East bound HOV lane. I know this is going rustle feathers here, but I honestly feel it has the potential to allow for faster commutes, better transit stops, and a lowering of crashes. This should really help remove confusion and the distractions of this stretch of road. Bonus is that it will make this stretch more of a Gateway, as the view of the corridor will no longer be blocked by rows of counter flow indicators.

All of these ideas found support in the two groups whose opinions I was aware of. These groups were a mix of cyclists, pedestrians, and firmly committed single family car users. I think the general feeling was that this stretch of road is soo horrible, trying anything is an improvement over what currently exists.

Later I'll post photos of the comments from the open house, most of which expressed concerns related to personal complaints rather than a desire to improve the area.
Disclaimer: Remember, these were my impressions of the agenda of city staff. It is possible that I was given the wrong impression, and that the city isn't desiring these outcomes. Alternatively, it could be that I was sleep deprived and completely misread the tone of the event. In short, don't scream in joy or anger yet.

[jollyburger]

"as the view of the corridor will no longer be blocked by rows of counter flow indicators"

What view? People walking down the center of the road looking at Stanley Park? Sure if you want to make a new HOV lane, but this seems like the most nit picky "benefit".

Also, what "too much signage" are you looking at?

Also, I think it will make a negligible difference since most buses have no problem in that stretch. You would need to make the HOV all the way downtown and even then people making right turn would cause more of a backlog.

[Metro-One]

How about the city experiments with some pedestrian and bike scrambles?

They are in Montreal and Toronto now (and everywhere here in Japan).

Nelson and Georgia seems like a good spot to try (along with Granville and Georgia and Granville and Robson).

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

How about the city experiments with some pedestrian and bike scrambles?

They are in Montreal and Toronto now (and everywhere here in Japan).

Nelson and Georgia seems like a good spot to try (along with Granville and Georgia and Granville and Robson).

Excuse me, Metro, but where do Nelson and Georgia intersect? I don't think they do. Maybe you were thinking of another intersection (?) Maybe Pender and Georgia?

[waves]

If they turned Pender and Georgia into one way streets it would make that intersection much simpler. It would solve many of the congestion problems on Georgia, particularly around the Art Gallery.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse me, Metro, but where do Nelson and Georgia intersect? I don't think they do. Maybe you were thinking of another intersection (?) Maybe Pender and Georgia?

haha, I meant Denman and Georgia.

[Feathered Friend]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

What view? People walking down the center of the road looking at Stanley Park? Sure if you want to make a new HOV lane, but this seems like the most nit picky "benefit".

Also, what "too much signage" are you looking at?

Also, I think it will make a negligible difference since most buses have no problem in that stretch. You would need to make the HOV all the way downtown and even then people making right turn would cause more of a backlog.

It wasn't the city championing the increased views with the counter-flow signals gone, that's on me. Also, I was referring to the Eastern view rather the view of Stanley Park.
In my opinion, the street would serve far better as an introduction to the City Core with the signals gone, as it would be easier for passengers and pedestrians to focus on the city's tallest towers, and the incoming impressive architecture.

As for the signage (as will be highlighted in a city board that I will post), the intersections at both Georgia and Denman and Georgia and Pender are a complicated mess of instructions. All intersections in that area have at least one sign, plus there's a variety of place names and way-finding, in addition to the counter-flow signals.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

It wasn't the city championing the increased views with the counter-flow signals gone, that's on me. Also, I was referring to the Eastern view rather the view of Stanley Park.
In my opinion, the street would serve far better as an introduction to the City Core with the signals gone, as it would be easier for passengers and pedestrians to focus on the city's tallest towers, and the incoming impressive architecture....(edit)

That's a really nifty idea, IMO. Georgia is impressive. The problem (or one of them) would be directing traffic to flow west on Pender, especially if the on-ramp of the Viaduct is gone.
Yes, I know it flows onto Dunsmuir, but would it not be a Herculean task in any event to get traffic westbound diverted to Pender St? How would you do that, engineering-wise?

[officedweller]

Putting an elbow on Pender will mess up the traffic flow as it'll slow down the Pender-bound traffic.
Right now, it's just an easy veer onto Pender.
Introducing a 90 degree left turn and an elbow on Pender will mean more cars will miss the left turn signal.

Pender is the best bypass of the congested Georgia strip, even with the bus lanes further east.

[Feathered Friend]

Taken at the open house.

[jollyburger]

Just one feedback there should be no daytime parking on West Georgia on weekends from the causeway to some part of the downtown core. This might be totally wrong but just throwing that one out there.

[ilikeredheads]

ffs, bicycles and heavy traffic don't mix, especially one with bus traffic as well. Bike lanes don't belong on Georgia. Every time a bus pulls over at a stop, it's blocking the bike lane. When that happens, the cyclist is going to either get on to the sidewalk or try to overtake on the curb lane. This is a hazard for everyone. There are already bike lanes on Alberni. Separate bikes and vehicles, not funnel them together.

They should also reduce the number of traffic lights. From Denman to Nicola there are 4 traffic lights, 3 of which are closely placed together. They disrupt traffic flow by creating stop and go traffic.

I don't mind getting rid of the counter flow lane. They create unnecessary confusion but I think that the counter flow signals blocking the view is pretty silly. Imo, there should be a narrow median of some sort to prevent left turning to/from the side streets.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Putting an elbow on Pender will mess up the traffic flow as it'll slow down the Pender-bound traffic.
Right now, it's just an easy veer onto Pender.
Introducing a 90 degree left turn and an elbow on Pender will mean more cars will miss the left turn signal.

Pender is the best bypass of the congested Georgia strip, even with the bus lanes further east.

Glad you see what I had in mind, too - that 90 degree turn onto it - a real downer.
Nevertheless you state Pender is the best Georgia bypass. If that sharp-angled entry is a problem, do you have any thing in mind (ramps, tunnel) to facilitate that?
Also, What about where Georgia merges West at Georgia on that angle? May I ask how you envision that being? Thanx!

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Just one feedback there should be no daytime parking on West Georgia on weekends from the causeway to some part of the downtown core. This might be totally wrong but just throwing that one out there.

totally right on, IMO yes !

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

ffs, bicycles and heavy traffic don't mix, especially one with bus traffic as well. Bike lanes don't belong on Georgia. Every time a bus pulls over at a stop, it's blocking the bike lane. When that happens, the cyclist is going to either get on to the sidewalk or try to overtake on the curb lane. This is a hazard for everyone. There are already bike lanes on Alberni. Separate bikes and vehicles, not funnel them together.

They should also reduce the number of traffic lights. From Denman to Nicola there are 4 traffic lights, 3 of which are closely placed together. They disrupt traffic flow by creating stop and go traffic.

I don't mind getting rid of the counter flow lane. They create unnecessary confusion but I think that the counter flow signals blocking the view is pretty silly. Imo, there should be a narrow median of some sort to prevent left turning to/from the side streets.

Agreed on everything but the counter flow lane, unless they made it eastbound only, which they never would.

I hate the Pender connection to Georgia westbound because 95% of the time someone will drift way out of their lane. But Vancouver drivers also fuck up the curved lanes heading onto the causeway, so what can you do.

How about for the "complete street" you make the causeway/bridge at the end of it six lanes to match Georgia and adequately support what is supposed to be a bustling city? No?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

ffs, bicycles and heavy traffic don't mix, especially one with bus traffic as well. Bike lanes don't belong on Georgia.

I think you've just made the exact argument why a separated bike lane is necessary.

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Every time a bus pulls over at a stop, it's blocking the bike lane.

Have you seen how the bus stops work on the Dunsmuir bike lane? They coexist very nicely.

[cornholio]

1) synced traffic lights (all of them)
2) more priority given to keeping east west traffic lights green longer and Georgia flowing
3) eliminate most left turns permanently except ones where you can build left turn bays or create only two through lanes east of Nicola and at each intersection create left turn bays and right turn lanes with full scramble pedestrian intersections. You would have only 3 or 4 movements, pedestrians, north/south, east/west with right and left turns possibly giving left turns a short green narrow at the end of each east/west cycle). Also people can go right right right to go left as well to spread load as right turns will be all green arrowed thanks to the scramble pedestrian intersections going through their own cycle.
4) restrict curb parking at all times except during the night
5) set up scramble cross walks (once you eliminate left turns this becomes significantly easier and you can then green arrow right turns
6) HOV lanes up to Pender/Nicola and then find another route for buses to by pass any traffic down parallel streets.
These things would certainly allow you to improve the environment along the street and its efficiency and flow. It would also enhance safety. Having said that continuing on my pessimistic streak I doubt Jerry and councils goal is what they state and their priority is to restrict vehicle thorough put further.

Anyways just my ideas.

[trofirhen]

[QUOTE=Pinion;7998406]Agreed on everything but the counter flow lane, unless they made it eastbound only, which they never would.

I hate the Pender connection to Georgia westbound because 95% of the time someone will drift way out of their lane. But Vancouver drivers also fuck up the curved lanes heading onto the causeway, so what can you do.

How about for the "complete street" you make the causeway/bridge at the end of it six lanes to match Georgia and adequately support what is supposed to be a bustling city? No?[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Doing that is practical and forward thinking IMO. However, for all their forward-thinkingness, such a concept runs counter to the Vancouver mindset, which prefers smaller-scale ideas.

[moosejaw]

how about doing a tunnel all the way from stanley park to pender that way you can have all the bike lanes and bus lanes you want and also take away those unsightly overhead arrows

[s211]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

such a concept runs counter to the Vancouver mindset, which prefers smaller-scale ideas.

I'm coming to the conclusion that Vancouverites in general are like drug addicts when it comes their truly destructive ways to fark up its transportation system. Their blind-Vision ideas are like drugs: insanely bad for you, mess you up for life and are just plain bad for you.

Even so, keep shooting up Vancouver, since we live in the era of "don't say no". Not our place to judge, right?