Fredinno's 'Master Plan'

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The Canada Line as a whole, though, needs expansion- large parts of Cambie need to be ripped up again either for new stations, or expanding other ones to 5-car length.

Maybe in 30 or 40 years. The Canada Line still has a lot of capacity expansion that doesn't require rebuilding stations or ripping up Cambie.

It wasn't underbuilt, it was built to meet current demand and easily expandable to meet demand for the next few decades.

By the time the Canada Line needs to be expanded, it will likely make much more sense to build a second north-south line instead of expanding the Canada Line.

I don't think an Arbutus Line would make that much sense as a relief line. I do hope that a street car is eventually built along Arbutus, linking up with the Downtown Streetcar and perhaps an expansion along Marine Drive all the way to River District, but I don't think that's a solution for the North-South route.

A Hastings Line from Waterfront and then going south down Willingdon, past Brentwood and ending at Metrotown would make more sense. That, along with a UBC extension of the M-Line would be more than enough to service Downtown and take pressure off all three existing SkyTrain lines.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

This, but have the line elevated because something tells me that the lack of houses with basements in Richmond tells me that building underground wouldn't be a good idea, because of the high water table. Also, change the propulsion system to LIM so we can allow a possible connection to the rest of the SkyTrain, the ability to use SkyTrain rolling stock (which has steerable bogies to reduce that torturous screeching when the train goes between Oakridge and King Edward, and will also save on operation and maintenance costs), and so we can avoid those three incidents of the line shutting down when it's too cold, as well as to help get over that pesky bridge better.

My idea is to extend it down the entire length of No.3 to Steveston Highway, with stations at Granville (might be too close), Blundell, Francis, Williams, and then Steveston Highway. The terminus would include track stubs and switches turned in the respective directions for future extensions to Steveston and the Riverport Entertainment Complex, but would first be utilized as transfer point for an express bus or B-Line route between Steveston and Riverport, as well as a future interchange for passengers to switch between Steveston and Riverport-bound trains.

Riverport spur will have stations at the bus garage, Ironwood, the future Highway 99/Steveston Highway bus exchange (large station because it will be a major transit hub, Spanish solution is likely warranted), and Riverport.

Can't be assed to think of any Steveston spur stations other than Steveston.

Anyway...

That was the original plan, then everyone said there was no space at Brighouse.

Originally Posted by Jebby

Maybe in 30 or 40 years. The Canada Line still has a lot of capacity expansion that doesn't require rebuilding stations or ripping up Cambie.

It wasn't underbuilt, it was built to meet current demand and easily expandable to meet demand for the next few decades.

By the time the Canada Line needs to be expanded, it will likely make much more sense to build a second north-south line instead of expanding the Canada Line.

I don't think an Arbutus Line would make that much sense as a relief line. I do hope that a street car is eventually built along Arbutus, linking up with the Downtown Streetcar and perhaps an expansion along Marine Drive all the way to River District, but I don't think that's a solution for the North-South route.

A Hastings Line from Waterfront and then going south down Willingdon, past Brentwood and ending at Metrotown would make more sense. That, along with a UBC extension of the M-Line would be more than enough to service Downtown and take pressure off all three existing SkyTrain lines.

Even if we don't have arbutus Line, there should still be some way to get from No. 3 Rd to Steveston- considering the expected growth of Richmond (by 2070)- it absorbs a lot of it. Consider this was before Canada Line.


Also, this is a 2050 map. So, by then, it's almost essential.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Maybe in 30 or 40 years. The Canada Line still has a lot of capacity expansion that doesn't require rebuilding stations or ripping up Cambie.

It wasn't underbuilt, it was built to meet current demand and easily expandable to meet demand for the next few decades.

By the time the Canada Line needs to be expanded, it will likely make much more sense to build a second north-south line instead of expanding the Canada Line. .............

...A Hastings Line from Waterfront and then going south down Willingdon, past Brentwood and ending at Metrotown would make more sense. That, along with a UBC extension of the M-Line would be more than enough to service Downtown and take pressure off all three existing SkyTrain lines.

Agreed. I think more trains with maxed-out frequency (tightest possible headways) will serve Canada line for a long while, that another North-South line, be it Granville or Main would be good, if proven necessary, and that a Hastings Line (underground please)... looping down Willingdon, then west to UBC would provide a "circle" line that is useful in so many cities. An ultimate Arbutus Line would me more of a local server - useful, but not really necessary until that area densifies significantly (and that'll be a long, long time from now).

[fredinno]

I'm making a v 2.0 on a much better map

Any objections before I begin?

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I'm making a v 2.0 on a much better map

Any objections before I begin?

Make it digital. You don't need a top of the line drawing tablet to do so.

[fredinno]

Is my map too ambitious for 2050 transit

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Is my map too ambitious for 2050 transit

Yes. We'll maybe have the Expo and Millennium extensions and a spur off Evergreen. Beyond that more B-Lines and dedicated bus lanes.

In the short term (10+ years) we're better off putting our efforts in improving the bus system.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It's a Thirty Year Plan, not a Ten Year Plan.

A new SkyTrain extension opens roughly every seven years... possibly even faster as the new extensions bring in more revenue. Assuming no setbacks, it's possible that we'll see a couple of new lines (not counting Broadway or Langley) before 2050.

Keeping that in mind, I'd split that Loop Line into several smaller lines. Much easier to finance/construct/operate that way.

[cganuelas1995]

I kinda want to see local surface transport along the Richmond-Brighouse route of the Canada line. I know the 50 goes from Waterfront to Olympic Village, then turns into the 15 from Olympic to Marine, meaning the 15 should turn into the 403 and go from Marine to Brighouse and then to the end.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's a Thirty Year Plan, not a Ten Year Plan.

A new SkyTrain extension opens roughly every seven years... possibly even faster as the new extensions bring in more revenue. Assuming no setbacks, it's possible that we'll see a couple of new lines (not counting Broadway or Langley) before 2050.

Keeping that in mind, I'd split that Loop Line into several smaller lines. Much easier to finance/construct/operate that way.

The Hastings-Boundary-41st 'Loop'?

It's not a true Loop, it only ends up turning 260 Degrees, not a full 360. It's a Semi-Loop.

Plus, it's around 30-32 km in length adding up everything, near the same length as the Expo Line.

How would I split it up? The UBC-Joyce section can't really be split. I guess I could split the loop among the Expo and another Line, though.

Though that would extend the Expo beyond its role as the "Spine" of the BC transit system. Hastings is fairly well used, but if Expo went though it, it would make a East Hastings revitalization that much more essential.

I'm not against it, I'm just throwing potential concerns and benefits.


Also, what about the use of a Gondola and Elevator system to replace Seabus across Vancouver Harbour as a 3rd Crossing?


Sort of like the Peak2Peak gondola, which has a free span of 3.03 km, but with a clearance of 50m- a tower and an elevator would be made on Lonsdale and Waterfront that has a height of 70 m?

The free span would need to be at least 3.24km (ideally 3.3 km for extra margin). This would set a world record and be an excellent tourist attraction in the middle of Vancouver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_2_Peak_Gondola

It cost CDN$51 million. So I guess we can say maybe $350 Million including the costs of building over a harbour. (The two towers are essentially just empty truss structures- unless we decide to make them office towers as well- in which case we could rent out space).

Massively cheaper than a tunnel (Broadway Phase 1 alone would cost $2 Billion, so cheap in comparison) and BMG would cost $120 Million.




Since Vancouver would get more tax $$$ later on due to more people, I would assume post 2035, it would decrease to 5y per extension.


So I guess I would say:

2017 (Technically 2016, December): Evergreen Line

2025: Broadway Line Phases 1-2 (Phase 1 2021) ($5 Billion)

2033: Surrey Line Phases 1 (Newton to Guildford) - 2 (Guildford to Langley Memorial) plus new Canada, Millennium, and Expo Line Stations. (@ $110-120 Million per km of El Rail (plus overruns), $5.170 Billion).
Fun fact, by this estimate, Surrey L-Line as El Skytrain would be ~$3 Billion, or $.4 Billion more than the current LRT plans. Making it even more pointless.
+ New YVR 3rd Terminal and Runway.


2040: Expo Line Extension on Hastings. Canada Line and Millennium Line Expansion. Burnaby Mountain Gondola, Vancouver Harbour Gondola, Commuter Rail "Rail for the Valley" to Abbotsford, Marine Drive, Arbutus, and West Coast Express Expansions. Commuter Rail to Tswassen Ferry Terminal. Commuter Rail Spur to Horseshoe Bay. All in all $2 Billion in new rail lines and infrastructure, plus 400 new rail locomotives. Gondolas cost $600 Million plus decommissioning of Seabus. Expo Line Extension costs ( @ $357 Million per km of cut and cover subway, $2.8 Billion including $.2 Billion in investment $ into revitalizing East Hastings.)

In total, $5.4 Billion in total infrastructure.


2045: New Iona Island Ferry Terminal, new Sunshine Coast Rail and Road Link (funded outside Translink). New Iona- Steveston Seashore Line ($2 Billion if El Rail+ Surface Skytrain all the way).
New Evergreen Line and Extension to Albion ($2 Billion, surface and El Rail).


2050: North Delta Skytrain Line ($3 Billion El Rail and Surface to White Rock)
Remaining Commuter Rail Expansions ($1 Billion?, including Commuter Rail to Peace Arch and Chilliwack?+250 new Locomotives? )
+ North Van Gondola up Lynn Valley? ($500 Million?)
+ New Expansion of Abbostford International Airport, Airport Traffic to increasingly be moved there. Also, includes potential Airship Traffic.


Missing: 41st Ave and Boundary Rd. Subway + El Rail (at UBC and Pacific Spirit) "Semi-loop"- $7.7 Billion! (Boundary Rd. Bridge prevents Boundary Rd. Segment from being El Rail). Meaning by this, it would be something for 2055. Is it worth it to try to salvage it? Or am I being too conservative/liberal with my estimates?

Also, I noticed how no one seemed to care about the highway system much- I would have thought the Westminister Tunnel would have gained some attention.



I wonder if it would be viable to extend Skytrain to Peace Arch and connect to Bellingham's transit system... if it would have any decent one...


This doesn't include inflation or real estate prices (likely to go down), so keep my numbers with a grain of salt.

HOWEVER. There is an issue, Translink is also $3.6 Billion in debt. Unless we find a new major source of revenue (like road pricing...), or we stick to PPP contracts for the future, and be more careful on long-term costs (not too popular around here, but it could work).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How would I split it up? The UBC-Joyce section can't really be split. I guess I could split the loop among the Expo and another Line, though.

As in one line down Hastings, one line down Boundary (or Willingdon), one line down 41st. You only have to build one at a time, rather than the whole thing at once - and with three lines, you can extend them in other directions (North Shore, Burnaby, SFU, etc).

Originally Posted by fredinno

[B]
Also, what about the use of a Gondola and Elevator system to replace Seabus across Vancouver Harbour as a 3rd Crossing?

- snip -

Something to think about, at least. Though you'd need to find a spot to put the towers and stations.

Originally Posted by fredinno

I wonder if it would be viable to extend Skytrain to Peace Arch and connect to Bellingham's transit system... if it would have any decent one...

Hah, nope. You'd need a proper heavy rail for that.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

As in one line down Hastings, one line down Boundary (or Willingdon), one line down 41st. You only have to build one at a time, rather than the whole thing at once - and with three lines, you can extend them in other directions (North Shore, Burnaby, SFU, etc).



Something to think about, at least. Though you'd need to find a spot to put the towers and stations.



Hah, nope. You'd need a proper heavy rail for that.

You could build it on top of the Sea Bus Terminals. Though that would require shutting the terminals down for a good year, even if the parts are pre-made in some Chinese Factory.

The issue is that you end up with too many transfers though- the length of my new split Loop only makes one new Line smaller than the Expo.
I get what you mean, though. I will use a "phased approach". Probably removing the Boundary Rd. Segment until 2055.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The issue is that you end up with too many transfers though- the length of my new split Loop only makes one new Line smaller than the Expo.

That's alright - transfers are inevitable in larger networks. And with 2-3 minute headways, it's even less of a problem than in other cities. It's your show, but it's better to have the freedom to expand three lines instead of being confined to one.

For example, a 41st line can have an extension down Canada Way, or a Hastings line to SFU. Build the entire thing as one big loop, and those extensions would have to be spurs or a new (and redundant) line.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's alright - transfers are inevitable in larger networks. And with 2-3 minute headways, it's even less of a problem than in other cities. It's your show, but it's better to have the freedom to expand three lines instead of being confined to one.

For example, a 41st line can have an extension down Canada Way, or a Hastings line to SFU. Build the entire thing as one big loop, and those extensions would have to be spurs or a new (and redundant) line.

I was planning to continue the semi-loop to North and West Van later on, but

I mean, I should put in "Future Skytrain" lines if I ever want to build to 2070 or something- and since lines can always be split later on, I will split it into 2, and just note that if it's extended, I would make them seperate lines.

No need to make transfers if there isn't extra line length that it would benefit from

Are the highway tunnels through New West's outskirts and Richmond too ambitious? Would they even be necessary?

[waves]

I posted this in another thread, but noticed it would also be useful here.

Originally Posted by waves

The Peak2Peak Gondola has a parabolic equation of roughly y(d)=-(1/97^2)*d^2

The span from Lonsdale Quay to Waterfront Station would be at least 3050m long. Evaluating the above equation for d=1525m gives us a cable height of 250m. Add on the minimum height requirements for cruise ships (61m is the height of Lions Gate Bridge and that is even too small) and we would need a tower of at least 315m. The Shangri-La, the tallest building in Vancouver is only 200m tall.

Even if two towers were placed in the water, the free span would still have to be at a minimum of 1100m and therefore a tower height of 100m would be needed. To achieve that minimum span length those towers would have a 25m underwater portion. Closer than 1100m and the depth of Burrard Inlet extends up to 70m.

It's engineering challenges aside, I also think it would be incredibly unsightly.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

I posted this in another thread, but noticed it would also be useful here.

Eh, I actually called off the idea once I realized a faster (~45 km/hr) Ferry was much more reasonable in terms of cost/benefit ratio- especially considering a gondola was only marginally faster.

I think it would look cool though. It can't be a truss structure though, it would need to be a skyscraper.

[fredinno]

Next time, it's definitely going to be digital. I just needed the ideas down.

[fredinno]

Keep in mind the Only reason I'm still here is to finish this BS.

If you people hate me, than please help me.



Because I know you all hate me. So help me fuck off.

[Reecemartin]

Hate is a strong word, I think people are just sharing their concerns. Tbh I'd take that as a sigh as respect, they are just being honest with you. Just try to hear what people are telling you!

And don't leave, you have good opinions to share!

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Hate is a strong word, I think people are just sharing their concerns. Tbh I'd take that as a sigh as respect, they are just being honest with you. Just try to hear what people are telling you!

And don't leave, you have good opinions to share!

Thanks, but I'm a little sick feeling like I'm not welcome all the time.

Calling me a Lego and Runescape player is pretty insulting.

I'm probably going to blow off for a while before coming back.