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Posted Jul 22, 2009, 9:21 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,742
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Transit Fantasies
By request from Deasine...
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Originally Posted by Allen
save Arbutus for a LRT line
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Originally Posted by deasine
I'm actually thinking the same. You could even have it go to the Interurban via Bridgeport where they have rail, that way, giving commuters another option to go to downtown faster and relieve congestion on the Canada Line.
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12
Ya the Canada Line sure is overcrowded...
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Originally Posted by paradigm4
You seriously think a high speed rail line would run through a residential area in the West side?!
Good luck even turning that corridor into LRT. If high speed rail ever went through Vancouver, it would be along the Grandview cut.
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Originally Posted by agrant
Yea. It would have to be a 30-40 km/h high speed rail line through the Arbutus corridor. That'd be a waste. Any high speed line should be completely free of road crossings, if you want the speed. And I agree that it would have to go through the Grandview cut, but they'd still need to do some major work there.
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Originally Posted by deasine
For me it's not necessarily high speed... there's practically no way you can do that with all those at-grade crossings but something along the lines of the Ottawa's O-Train would be nice.
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Originally Posted by Allen
That vision would really happen...and it really should be like this:
The LRT line should go down Arbutus, pass Marine Dr. then all the way to Braid.
People can then transfer to Scott Road and to the Fraser Valley.
Map from Fever of SSP
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Originally Posted by NetMapel
There is an existing train bridge besides the Petallo bridge so I think the exchange point between the two rail line should be at New Wesminster instead of near Braid station. I have coloured the two train lines from that previously posted map to show how I think the two lines should work. They were all grey before so I don't know what line goes where. I have separated them into a purple and sky-blue colour. The purple line goes from downtown all the way to south of Fraser so there is no need for any exchange. The solid red line there is where the train bridge is, so that purple line really should be crossing the Fraser river via the dotted red line to the solid red line.
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Originally Posted by allan_kuan
The only problem about the NewWest - Surrey Swing Bridge is that it's old and that it was not designed to handle current and future traffic loads. This is a huge bottleneck in getting Cascades to expand schedules in Vancouver. A replacement is due soon... and with that replacement new needs will have to be met (e.g. high train capacity with more curvature to support high-speed-train operation.
- Allan Kuan
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Originally Posted by Canadian Mind
If any of the bigwigs were looking ahead I'd hope they would be considering the replacement to either be able to handle both freight and passanger traffic on separate ROEs, or have two separate bridges, so that a freight replacement can be immediate, with funding already set aside to develop a separate passanger train bridge for a south fraser line.
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Originally Posted by NetMapel
I see then. That makes sense with Braid station being located close to some major roads like Hwy 1 and Lougheed Hwy. Ultimately, for these two lines to work well, they must have really good timing. What frequency would you guys recommend for these two lines ? Also, how fast do you think those trains should run ? I am hoping that it will only take a max of 30 minutes to go from Langley to Vancouver downtown... 50 minutes from Abbortsford to Vancouver downtown. Hope they can achieve that.
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Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer
Personally I think the best use for Arbutus for the immediate future is off peak, eventually all day, commuter service that runs over to the Interurban. I'm thinking something along the lines of Talents (like the O-Train), with this being a peak only branch of an all day Langely - Downtown line.
This should give a better idea of how Arbutus could fit into a comprehensive regional rail system. Just ignore the transparent tunnels, they'd be nice, but its not happening any time soon, and even then I don't really think the one from Burrard makes sense. Just adding another streetcar across Burrard from Broadway to Waterfront would seem like enough, and better for something that might become LRT.
PS, realised I forgot to link to the second part of the map, here's what I see as the eventual regional LRT network; aside from Hastings its really more of a Tram Train system than conventional North American light rail, but we really do need the regulations allowing that anyway. I more or less imagine it as a continutation of the program that creates the map I showed above, but really don't have any good idea of phasing (although basing it around the North Van tunnel seems logical).
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Originally Posted by NetMapel
^^^ A line to White Rock will be... so awesome...
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Originally Posted by SpongeG
there was talk about a new traffic bridge from sapperton to surrey using that island and that it could accomodate LRT or Rail - I remember it was in the paper or something a while back - I remember hearing some chatter on the radio once around the time
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Originally Posted by CBeats
So that map's good, but the waterfront rail on the North Shore would never be used. That CN rail right of way goes through industrial areas, docklands, and native reserves in North Van - places with few residents and no desirable destinations. I really don't think the link to Horseshoe Bay is necessary - there wouldn't be much ridership other than people wanting to go to the ferry terminal.
And about the tunnel to Londsdale from Waterfront...I don't think that'll happen for a long long time. It's (very likely) incredibly expensive, and for such a short connection relative to the rest of the system, it's not worth it. It's just like how the Sea-to-Sky Highway went with the overland route through Eagleridge Bluffs instead of tunneling through the mountain; for such a small portion of the highway, the expense was too great. Other jurisdictions would probably complain about the high costs and how they aren't getting as much transit service anyway.
The seabus will just have to do...
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Originally Posted by Spork
I believe that that was an optional alignment for the new Patullo bridge. If I also am remembering correctly, that was the most expensive and least desirable of the options.
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Originally Posted by allan_kuan
I am looking at some of the maps people made but there are a few criticisms I have to point out:
- The current tracks in South Vancouver serve mainly industrial areas. Surely some gentrification and conversion to residential is possible through the whole corridor but that may not be well received by Vancouver city council.
- Arbutus corridor is a good route for a joint streetcar and bikeway right-of-way. The slower speed of the streetcar would make it have less of a competitive advantage over the Canada Line but it will probably do well serving areas just around the line. Placing passenger rail on those tracks isn't desirable due to inevitable criticism from nearby residents.
- The interurban plans have two problems. For one, the mainline duplicates the routing of the Millenium Line in multiple places. Two, the section to Upper Lonsdale would require tunneling and be expensive (as well as the tunnel through the Burrard Inlet). There's also a problem of route duplication on both the interurban and regional rail plans.
This map below is incomplete but here are my suggestions:
Regional Transit in Vancouver
- The Pacific Mountain Express (PMX) will service the Sea-to-Sky corridor. It will be a high-speed rail line running from Lonsdale Quay, with multiple intermediate stops. For this to occur many improvements will have to be made to the current rail line (e.g. smoother curves, more viaducts/tunnels, double-tracking, signalling upgrades).
- The current West Coast Express will be divided into two and both will be extended. The North Fraser Express (NFE) will stop at the current Mission station and will continue to head east north of the Fraser River, terminating at Agassiz. The South Fraser Express (SFE) will stop at a new station at Mission (with connections to the old) and head south into Abbotsford before turning northeast into Chilliwack and Rosedale.
- A third line, the South Shore Connector (SSC) will start at Pacific Central Station and head south to White Rock through a new tunnel under the Fraser River.
- A fourth line, the Surrey Langley Connector (SLC) will not be a high-speed rail line like the others due to the number of level crossings involved. Rather, it will be a normal commuter rail service connecting Vancouver, Surrey, Cloverdale, Langley, and Fort Langley.
I also have in mind several streetcar networks but that will have to come at a later time.
- Allan Kuan
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Originally Posted by Allen
^ HSRs
It seems like the city council wants to keep that land for industrial purposes...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan
I am looking at some of the maps people made but there are a few criticisms I have to point out:
- The current tracks in South Vancouver serve mainly industrial areas. Surely some gentrification and conversion to residential is possible through the whole corridor but that may not be well received by Vancouver city council.
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True, which is why I'd put commuter rail on it for now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan
- Arbutus corridor is a good route for a joint streetcar and bikeway right-of-way. The slower speed of the streetcar would make it have less of a competitive advantage over the Canada Line but it will probably do well serving areas just around the line. Placing passenger rail on those tracks isn't desirable due to inevitable criticism from nearby residents.
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Keep in mind I'm talking more about diesel light rail than locomotives and bi-levels. I'm also only talking about peak hour service. I think it probably does largely depend on how well the community can be convinced that Talents are more like LRVs than heavy rail trains, but thats not a reason to dismiss the idea outright IMO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
- The interurban plans have two problems. For one, the mainline duplicates the routing of the Millenium Line in multiple places. Two, the section to Upper Lonsdale would require tunneling and be expensive (as well as the tunnel through the Burrard Inlet). There's also a problem of route duplication on both the interurban and regional rail plans.
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Ahh, multi part response, but here goes:
There isn't actually any duplication between the LRT and Regional maps, my idea is that the LRT will replace the regional lines sometime after they open. It would still have a regional focus, but be double tracked, electrified and run all day service, so I'm calling it rapid transit rather than regional rail. Except for West Coast Express and possibly Whistler (which should probably be electrified fully) I see the regional lines as using Talents, making them more LRT than GO/West Cosat Express like, mostly worth noting since it makes upgrades for one system entirely usable for the replacement (especially since neither Talents or LRVs are heavy rail certified/certifiable). Think of the service type as RER/BART with trams and less than total grade seperation.
No question the Vancouver part of the Interurban duplicates the M-Line; my thinking is that it becomes an express route, probably only stopping once after Lougheed before Pacific Central. You'd be looking at about a 15 minute ride versus the (if I recall correctly) 30+ on Skytrain from New Westminster, and avoiding dumping all the Surrey passengers onto the Expo line. Again, peak hour commuter is more suitable for now, leave LRT for an upgrade once demand is built up.
As for the the Lonsdale and North Van tunnels they really are intended as long range vision kind of things, even more so than the express line; I'm guessing 20+ years out, sometime in the 2030s maybe. Certainly tough to justify now, but at least the Burrard Inlet part becomes easier to justify if its part of the line to Whistler. The Seabus is fine locally, but it does become a rather long ride out to Horsehoe from downtown via Lonsdale (which is why the bus out there takes the bridge), and is also a pretty long connection for tourists from Whistler coming in by train.
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