California High Speed Rail Thread

[SFBruin]

How do other countries do it?

I visited a foreign country (China--don't ask me how I paid) once, and they had them. My belief is that many countries have toll roads.

Is there a country or set of countries whose systems we should study?

This, of course, is predicated on deciding that we should have toll roads.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by electricron

Wiki link for list of toll bridges in the USA, 138 in total:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...#United_States
Wiki link for list of toll roads in USA, 133 in total:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._United_States
Another 32 highways used to be toll roads.
List of toll tunnels in the USA, 15 in total:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._United_States

List of States with either a toll bridge, toll roads, or toll tunnels:
Alabama, Alaska, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia.
35 of the 50 States toll something! How unAmerican to have so many! Where are the riots???

I am not against privatizing some of our infrastructure where it makes sense but, please, be honest about the performance of private toll roads.

Private Toll Road Backed By $430 Million in Federal Funds Goes Bust

O.C. toll road agency requests federal bailout

Lessons from bankruptcy of South Bay Expressway

Foreign-owned operator of Indiana toll road files for bankruptcy

[Cirrus]

Hi folks. I see a lot of name-calling. Consider this a moderation warning to cut it out.

I'm not sure what happened to the old system of "updates only" for this thread, with debate about the pros/cons of the project banished to a separate thread. But if folks are interested in that then I can investigate why that system ended, and maybe bring it back.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'm not sure what happened to the old system of "updates only" for this thread, with debate about the pros/cons of the project banished to a separate thread. But if folks are interested in that then I can investigate why that system ended, and maybe bring it back.

I would be in support of that. Sorry for getting off topic about the project.

[northbay]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Hi folks. I see a lot of name-calling. Consider this a moderation warning to cut it out.

I'm not sure what happened to the old system of "updates only" for this thread, with debate about the pros/cons of the project banished to a separate thread. But if folks are interested in that then I can investigate why that system ended, and maybe bring it back.

Support the idea 100%!

[urbanview]

On the subject of the train: The fact that they are making this train to nowhere is embarrassing. If you're going to start it, just finish it. You know eventually you're going to do it anyway, might as well do it now.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

because there won't be any grade crossings.

Whelp the latest renderings show at grade crossings for the bay area. This project is a total failure in every way and it isn't even finished. Unreal.

[plutonicpanda]

IMO, this project really needs to be indefinitely suspended. Fix our current rail system first and bring up to par what we already have! A complete overhaul of California's environmental laws and regulations in regards to infrastructure building needs to be looked at. Union influence should also be looked at. A project of this significance should be exempt from many environmental rules and regulations as well as union requirements to bring costs down.

[urbanview]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

IMO, this project really needs to be indefinitely suspended. Fix our current rail system first and bring up to par what we already have! A complete overhaul of California's environmental laws and regulations in regards to infrastructure building needs to be looked at. Union influence should also be looked at. A project of this significance should be exempt from many environmental rules and regulations as well as union requirements to bring costs down.

No thanks. Just build it as soon as possible, no delays. Delays just mean it could be cancelled outright by some idiot. Just gives them an excuse to cancel it.

[202_Cyclist]

Virgin Trains seeking $800M in bonds for high-speed rail project


Image via the Las Vegas Review-Journal.

By Mick Akers
Las Vegas Review-Journal
August 1, 2019

"Virgin Trains is looking to finally get the long-talked about high-speed train project between Las Vegas and Southern California on track by applying for tax exempt bonds from the two states it will run in.

Under the name of its parent company, Florida East Coast Industries, Virgin Trains USA is seeking authorization from California authorities to sell $600 million in tax-exempt private activity bonds, according to the California State Treasurer’s Office.

The company also is seeking approval from Nevada to sell another $200 million in bonds, according to Terry Reynolds, deputy director of the Nevada Department of Business and Industry..."

https://www.reviewjournal.com/traffi...oject-1816513/

[aquablue]

The costs are too high. I read that Morocco got a HSR line built for nothing, (less than 10 billion or so) and even Spain did for peanuts. Its just ridiculous for the system to cost 77 billion dollars just beause its the USA/Cali.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by urbanview

No thanks. Just build it as soon as possible, no delays. Delays just mean it could be cancelled outright by some idiot. Just gives them an excuse to cancel it.

We need to get the best bang for our buck. We need new laws that prevent NIMBYs from interfering with priority infrastructure projects. We need to remove red tape. We need to look at the feasibility of Japan building MagLev for the Union Station to San Diego portion. This project needs to be done the RIGHT way. With extra monies freed from reducing costs more money can be funneled into local transit to and from the HSR route giving people better accessibility to it.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by aquablue

The costs are too high. I read that Morocco got a HSR line built for nothing, (less than 10 billion or so) and even Spain did for peanuts. Its just ridiculous for the system to cost 77 billion dollars just beause its the USA/Cali.

Morocco and Spain and California are different places, with different variables and different economic realities. News at 10.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Morocco and Spain and California are different places, with different variables and different economic realities. News at 10.

How are you even allowed to post with this hostile way you have? You're such an arrogant poster. Listen captain obvious, if you have something useful to say and offer, show it. We don't need your snark here.

You can sit on that high horse all you want, but you know I'm right. 77 billion dollars projected for a HSR line or two, lol. What a lark! Something is seriously wrong. France could build their whole system for that. America has a problem with infrastructure project costs compared to the other developed nations, it's time something is done about it.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by aquablue

how are you even allowed to post with this hostile way you have? You're such an arrogant poster. Listen captain obvious, if you have something useful to say and offer, show it. We don't need your snark here.

You can sit on that high horse all you want, but you know i'm right. 77 billion dollars projected for a hsr line or two, lol. What a lark! Something is seriously wrong. France could build their whole system for that. America has a problem with infrastructure project costs compared to the other developed nations, it's time something is done about it.

+1

BusyBee often contributes nothing other than snark or thinks every solution can be solved with a streetcar a bike lane conveniently forgetting a larger and likely overwhelmingly majority of the population prefers autos and suburbs. His savior Jeff Speck is a joke and any city that takes his advice like Savannah has outrageous housing costs. It should be no surprise he dismisses the real issue with infrastructure cost.

Here are just a handful of articles on the issue from a quick Google search:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...expensive.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4974f7c7d8b0

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Arti...nt-the-US.aspx

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/0...countries.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...eat-to-economy

https://www.citylab.com/life/2014/04...y-should/8799/

Meanwhile China on top of their expansive HSR system and metro subway networks is building a national freeway network that is poised to make ours look like Mexico's Federal Auto-route system.

Not to mention many cities and countries in Europe are aggressively expanding their freeway networks as well with the exception of the loon taking up the mayors office in Paris. This all comes when they still are able to fund and build adequate HSR and intercity rail travel as a viable alternative instead of the joke that is mass transit in the US. It then causes what we see here a radical opinion of extremes on each side only wanting their preferred mode share funded instead of a truly multi-mode share funded infrastructure plan. We need to get on the ball and stop fucking around because it appears the U.S. is quickly becoming a backwards country when it comes to infrastructure. I have been keeping track of various infrastructure projects around the world and I've considered compiling them into a list on a new thread here as a general catch all for mega projects. Things like a massive capacity addition for Los Angeles Downtown Freeway Ring should be had adding minimum of 5 lanes each way but two reason why that isn't happening is because of the moronic anti-car crowd and the politicians who lack the competency to do what they are doing in Houston and their road network. What an embarrassment it will be for California if Texas is able to build their HSR system in the next decade.

https://research4committees.blog/201...a-way-forward/

[Busy Bee]

^I'm 100% confident you are confusing me with someone else but I really don't care about that.

I'm also not dismissing US construction costs or just adding pointless snark. My point was those that throw out things like "Morrocco just built hsr" don't really add much either. What, because it rides over arid terrain that means it's like the California project? That means they had to tunnel miles to drop thousands of feet into a basin? They had to fairly purchase billions of dollars of private property for row acquisition? Aside from mentioning a Morocco, or a Kazakhstan, or a Spain for that matter as conjecture and a reminder of how sad it is we can't pull off the same thing, what good is it to even bring it up? The specifications and construction of those projects have very little to due with CHSR other than it's a fast train and there's a lot of sunshine? CHSR is an immensely complicated project on a massive scale and NO ONE should be surprised it's going to cost what it is. Could certain things be done better? Sure. I think the construction of "signature bridges" in Fresno is a perfect example. There is no need for anything other than a guideway that looks just like all the other guideway. If you want an example of something that drives up cost unnecessarily, look at that. People need to understand that just throwing out "Morocco just built..." or Saudi or Kazakhstan doesn't prove anything because you DON'T know the details of those project costs or the realities on the ground even though you pretend to.

[jtown,man]

Great points all around.

People in America are either extremist on either side. They are the car-only crowd(vast majority of americans) or urbanism-at-all-costs crowd(majority here). We need to face the realities of our public transportation systems in America; they are too costly and not preferred by most people.

Only one of these issues can be fixed "easily." There is no reason why the Japanese or Europeans can build what they build so little compared to us. We can't pretend they are Dubai or some low-wage and low-protection of the environment countries. They are further along than we are on those fronts. Our transit-usage issues will take generations to change but they have *nothing* to do with how ridiculous our politicians waste our money on these projects.

The California HSR debacle has become 100% political. It seems like some who initially supported it will ignore any and all complaints and chant "just build the damn thing." No. Don't. I am scared this thing will scare others from attempting something so grand in the USA. We should expect better. I would never vote on a project like this for many reasons, but one is painfully obvious.

Why can other countries build these things for so much less? I know there are articles out there, there are some posted on this very thread. So until we adopt polices that help bring down the costs we shouldn't expect massive new projects. Which is a shame...because problem #1(Americans prefering the car) will never be cured until they have more reasons to leave their cars.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

CHSR is an immensely complicated project on a massive scale and NO ONE should be surprised it's going to cost what it is.

I just want to note I read everything else you posted and don't have much to say about it as I don't necessarily disagree with any of it.

But the part of I quoted I will address. I don't think it's as much to do with anyone being shocked at the true cost(maybe they are, maybe they aren't) but I think where we are at now is what was promised and what we have. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what I have read, the original project costs were to be anywhere ranging from a conservative 20 billion to a more liberal 40 billion. Now with prop. 1a being passed by a very slim margin do you really think if the cost estimates today touted around 100 billion and seemingly increasing twice a year would succeed another vote? My bet is the project would be shut down entirely. President Trump did the right thing and took away monies that were promised as California went back on its promise. Be real and tell it like it is. This project has turned into a shit show. I'd love to see HSR built(though I'd prefer widening I-5 to eight lanes first between LA and SF) but for the uncontrollable costs, why not expedite projects in the bay area and LA first?

We all know the 2028 plan is complete horseshit and relies on the congestion pricing plan to make it work and that plan has a fat change of happening in LA. Have you been keeping up with the proposal in NYC? I bet it doesn't even happen there. It has failed in Europe with makeshift solutions like the Stockholm solution being needed to keep it bring in profit. Congestion pricing is flat out unsustainable and does NOT help mass transit, it burdens the working class, and DOES NOT REDUCE CONGESTION! Agree or disagree with that the fact is once again the chances of true congestion pricing being implemented in Los Angeles are very slim. That is basically the only shot Garcetis 28 by 28 plan has. But canceling the HSR plan and diverting those funds to local transit needs has a very real shot at accomplishing this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califo...igh-Speed_Rail

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics...t-13621347.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_C...Proposition_1A

For the last time, I would love to have the option of taking HSR to San Fran or San Diego or Las Vegas. But for the money it would take due to the unnecessary red tape and other reasons I just can't support it as we could get the same quality rail line and service for much cheaper.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Great points all around.

People in America are either extremist on either side. They are the car-only crowd(vast majority of americans) or urbanism-at-all-costs crowd(majority here). We need to face the realities of our public transportation systems in America; they are too costly and not preferred by most people.

Only one of these issues can be fixed "easily." There is no reason why the Japanese or Europeans can build what they build so little compared to us. We can't pretend they are Dubai or some low-wage and low-protection of the environment countries. They are further along than we are on those fronts. Our transit-usage issues will take generations to change but they have *nothing* to do with how ridiculous our politicians waste our money on these projects.

The California HSR debacle has become 100% political. It seems like some who initially supported it will ignore any and all complaints and chant "just build the damn thing." No. Don't. I am scared this thing will scare others from attempting something so grand in the USA. We should expect better. I would never vote on a project like this for many reasons, but one is painfully obvious.

Why can other countries build these things for so much less? I know there are articles out there, there are some posted on this very thread. So until we adopt polices that help bring down the costs we shouldn't expect massive new projects. Which is a shame...because problem #1(Americans prefering the car) will never be cured until they have more reasons to leave their cars.

That is true. There were around 6 million people or so who voted yes.

Yes 6,680,485 52.6
No 6,015,944 47.4
Valid votes 12,696,429 92.4
Invalid or blank votes 1,046,748 7.6
Total votes 13,743,177 100.00

Would many of those who voted yes vote the same way after all of this? I'm not so sure. But I heavily agree there are a large portion who going the route of the ostrich by sticking their head in the sand and blindly saying "yes yes yes build it." Though frustrating much of the blame lies on the politicians hands, IMHO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_C...Proposition_1A

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by plutonicpanda

there are a large portion who going the route of the ostrich by sticking their head in the sand and blindly saying "yes yes yes build it."

Tbf, there are people in the "no" crowd who do this too.