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  #821  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 7:47 PM
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240glt 240glt is offline
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Originally Posted by Boris2k7 View Post
A group of consultants were commissioned by CoC to carry out a study (obtained through FOIP) imagining what to do with the Saddledome if they Flames vacated the building...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...port-1.4406716

Naturally, the foreward in the report was written by the President and CEO of Edmonton Northlands.
Good job Calgary. Nice to see this done in the proper order, not ass backwards like we did it here in Edmonton
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  #822  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 9:28 PM
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I'm late to this massive thread. Has there been any discussion about the horse racing industry?

It's pretty much a dying industry but can still be a fun thing to do when someone is bored. Go to the local track and bet a few bucks on some long shots to win, place or show. Then when you're done pissing away your money, you can piss away even more on the slots.

I just saw in the news Kawartha Downs may be closing. I went there once on the way to a cottage a long time ago. They have an auto racing track there now but things aren't looking good for the place.

I always like stopping by the local track on my road trips. It's nothing revelatory but I like seeing the minor quirks and differences between tracks/slots. Flamboro Downs is kind of interesting with their Arabian theme.

I remember when Georgian Downs moved from that terrible Barrie location to Innisfil.

Woodbine I know is about to diversify the land. Hoping to build condos and shopping and entertainment and all that to make up for the lack horse racing interest these days. It's been 20 years since the Breeders Cup was there. Would love to see it come back.

Last edited by megadude; Nov 17, 2017 at 11:40 PM.
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  #823  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 10:09 PM
Franco401 Franco401 is offline
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The Fredericton Raceway is no longer hosting racing events, after 130 years of harness racing. map

The track is incredibly prime downtown land, and there's a lot of opinions on what to do with it. Buildings on site include a Tim Horton's, Williams Seafood, grandstand, stables, Fredericton Multicultural Centre (former YMCA) and Exhibition Building (includes former arena). In my opinion, only the Multicultural Centre is worth keeping in its current building.

The racing community is in even bigger limbo. There are no possible sites and little interest right now in building a new racetrack somewhere.
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  #824  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 11:48 PM
megadude megadude is offline
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That's rather unfortunate.

Interesting how it's right smack dab in a neighbourhood. None of the Ontario tracks I've been to are like that. I see how that can be prime land for development.

Greenwood wasn't that far from downtown TO and was in a neighbourhood. Was before my time though.
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  #825  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 11:53 PM
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Last year I was in Montreal and was driving to Ikea from downtown. Happened to spot a big horse track grandstand off in the distance. I thought, wait a minute, lemme go lay down a few bucks on some ponies while I'm here.

To my disappointment I found this. A damn shame it came to this:


Rayside Labossière
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  #826  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2017, 11:55 PM
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Hurdles remain for proposed CFL team on East Coast
Canadian Press November 17, 2017

HALIFAX — Atlantic Canada’s long-held dream of wooing the CFL east of Montreal has been reignited after the league confirmed it’s in talks with a "professional, enthusiastic and impressive" group of prospective owners rallying for a Halifax franchise.

But advocates and experts acknowledged Friday that sobering questions remain: Does the East Coast have the fan base to support a Canadian Football League franchise? Is the business community interested in sponsoring a team? And, perhaps most importantly, who will foot the bill for a new Halifax stadium?

"The CFL is going to want to see a stable ownership group with deep pockets, which appears to be the case," said Moshe Lander, a Concordia University professor who specializes in the economics of sports.

"The fight is going to be who is going to pay for the stadium."

Stadiums hardly ever yield the economic benefits that are promised, Lander said, noting that it would need a minimum of 30,000 seats, but the "sweet spot" is closer to 40,000.

"You would ideally like to incorporate sponsorship," he said. "Sobeys would be an ideal anchor sponsor."

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage called a potential CFL team an "exciting opportunity," but said the municipality will not be leading the charge.

"A stadium is not a capital priority at this time," he said. "Any proposal would need to be private sector led and make economic sense for the municipality."

A football stadium would have to be built "without putting taxpayers at risk," Savage said, and the team would have to be an "Atlantic play" to make economic sense.

"The big issue really is the corporate support," he said. "This is the financial centre of Atlantic Canada and I think the CFL sees that if you want to have a franchise that is going to be successful there has to be deep financial roots and commercial support."

The league said in a statement there have been discussions with a group interested in securing a franchise for Halifax, but the talks are preliminary.

"These conversations are relatively new and a very thorough process of due diligence must be put in place and completed before we can fully assess the viability of the project," it said.

The CFL said it won’t be conducting any interviews on a prospective team for Halifax until Grey Cup week and State of the League address. A league official said a timetable for potentially awarding a franchise has not yet been established.

Among members of the group is Bruce Bowser, president of AMJ Campbell Van Lines, who said in a statement they are "incredibly excited and bullish regarding the opportunity to bring this great sport and great league to the Atlantic region."

Former New Brunswick premier Frank McKenna, who has advocated bringing a team east in the past, said "there is reason to be optimistic" about the current bid.

The key, according to the deputy chairman of the TD Bank Group, is making the "very marginal" economics work.

"I’d say there are two or three secrets to success," he said. "You would need very strong community ownership. I’m thinking the models in Saskatchewan and Green Bay, for example."

"And you would need it to be more than just a football play," McKenna added. "It has to be real estate and retail and other things associated with it in order to increase the revenue from the property."

He pointed to the stadium at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa.

It’s a model Savage called "attractive" after a 2014 tour of the facility, which includes the 24,000-seat TD Place Stadium.

The redesign of the park at the southern edge of the Glebe neighbourhood includes retail space, condominiums, and a children’s play structure, which was considered critical to securing the Ottawa Redblacks franchise.

Lander said Halifax, with a major international airport, growing population, major universities and development, is a good location for a team. He said the CFL could use a team in the Atlantic region.

"It’s odd to claim you’re the Canadian Football League without having representation in Atlantic Canada," he said, adding that the league currently has an uneven number of teams.

"The CFL right now is nine teams and odd numbers for sports leagues is really weird," Lander said. "Sports leagues have this obsessive desire to turn things into conferences and divisions."

Derek Martin — president of Sports and Entertainment Atlantic, which is pitching a new FIFA-sanctioned professional soccer franchise for Halifax — called a prospective CFL team "positive" for the region but wondered whether there is a potential fan base.

"My concerns with the CFL is there isn’t a history here in this market," he said. "There isn’t a large number of youth that play football and have it ingrained in their DNA like in Saskatchewan. There is a lot of work that would have to go into developing the fan base so that consistently, game after game, you can get out 22 to 24,000 people into a stadium."

Martin added: "I do think it would be great if we could finally solve this large outdoor stadium riddle for Halifax."

Earlier this year, Halifax councillors unanimously signed off on a pop-up soccer stadium at a downtown municipal sports field.

Sports and Entertainment Atlantic pitched the temporary soccer facility in a bid to earn a team in the Canadian Premier League. The team’s home field would be at the Wanderers Grounds, a four-hectare natural turf sports field on the Halifax Commons.

TSN reported Thursday the group pitching a CFL team made a presentation to the league’s board of governors several weeks ago in Toronto. The report also identified Anthony LeBlanc, a former president and CEO of the NHL’s Arizona Coyotes, as a partner in the group.

The CFL awarded a conditional franchise to Halifax in 1982 — it was named the Atlantic Schooners — but financing for a stadium never came about. The league played regular-season games in Moncton, N.B., in 2010, 2011 and ’13.

The population of Halifax was about 403,000 in 2016, according to Statistics Canada. By comparison, Regina — home of the CFL’s Saskatchewan Roughriders — had a population of around 214,000 in 2016.
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  #827  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 12:19 AM
Rollerstud98 Rollerstud98 is offline
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Good job Calgary. Nice to see this done in the proper order, not ass backwards like we did it here in Edmonton
Big difference here is that the City of Calgary owns the Saddledome.
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  #828  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 12:25 AM
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^^I'm going to try and type this for the third f'n time. Keep hitting a key and Firefox closes.

There are some interesting takeaways from the article. The supposed "expert" is totally ill informed when he talks of a 30-40k stadium. 22-24k will be enough to be profitable.

He kinda states the obvious when talking about Sobey's as a sponsor but to be successful they need a lot more than that with much smaller businesses needing to be involved.

The expert claims the ownership group has deep pockets. I'm not sure of that yet and hope my future due diligence will prove me wrong. As of now, not including the community owned teams, probably the "poorest" guy in the league is worth 250-300 million.

The CPL people seem to be making some strange comments.

Funny that Frank McKenna was chosen as an interview subject. If he was involved in the group instead of being a commentator on the story, this would be a done deal. I think he and Ambrosie have likely crossed paths in the financial game and it would be great if McKenna got involved.

Made it, finally, posted.
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  #829  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 1:17 AM
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Just heard that Anthony LeBlanc is involved in the quest for a team in Halifax.

If anyone's followed the Coyotes saga and his involvement with it, the city of Halifax should run hard and fast away from this guy. He's a total scam artist and is thoroughly incompetent. This will be dead in the water.
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  #830  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Just heard that Anthony LeBlanc is involved in the quest for a team in Halifax.

If anyone's followed the Coyotes saga and his involvement with it, the city of Halifax should run hard and fast away from this guy. He's a total scam artist and is thoroughly incompetent. This will be dead in the water.
Two of the main proponents of the Halifax CFL bid are from IceArizona, so I can only assume what that means for the City of Halifax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZCentral
The city’s audit of the Coyotes 2013-14 season was released Tuesday about an hour before the council voted 7-0 to hire Beacon. The audit found:

IceArizona shorted the city about $76,400 in naming-rights revenue and nearly $40,000 in ticket-surcharge revenue.
Glendale’s records were unclear about whether IceArizona paid the city enough for its share of ticket revenue from the state high-school basketball tournament in 2014.
IceArizona refused to provide financial statements to verify its operational loss. The team reported in March that it lost $34.5 million in the 2013-14 season.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...otes/71895404/
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  #831  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 1:32 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Just heard that Anthony LeBlanc is involved in the quest for a team in Halifax.

If anyone's followed the Coyotes saga and his involvement with it, the city of Halifax should run hard and fast away from this guy. He's a total scam artist and is thoroughly incompetent. This will be dead in the water.
I think I had that impression as well and I'm not reading particularly flattering things about Bowser but that could be one guy's sour grapes.

Drummond and LeBlanc would have got money from the sale of the Coyotes (not sure how much yet) so that might "legitimize" them but I am not getting a good vibe about this group. Ambrosie, one hopes, as a former financial big time player would have vetted them, as there is no need to rush this.
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  #832  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 2:54 AM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Hurdles remain for proposed CFL team on East Coast
Canadian Press November 17, 2017

HALIFAX — Atlantic Canada’s long-held dream of wooing the CFL east of Montreal has been reignited after the league confirmed it’s in talks with a "professional, enthusiastic and impressive" group of prospective owners rallying for a Halifax franchise...


...The population of Halifax was about 403,000 in 2016, according to Statistics Canada. By comparison, Regina — home of the CFL’s Saskatchewan Roughriders — had a population of around 214,000 in 2016.
Something I find interesting in the Canadian Press comparison of CFL market population. Instead of comparing Halifax's urban population of 315,000 they chose Halifax's Regional Municipality population of 403,000 across 5.5 thousand sq kms



and compared it to Regina city limit population of 214,000 within 180 sq kms (meaning no one outside of Regina in Saskatchewan would count in its fan base even if they live outside of city limit line, like next door in White City or Emerald Park suburbs).

by that estimation, Halifax fan base is a shoe-in for population with market area for a CFL franchise, and Halifax being pretty close to the city of Vancouver which has 600,000 within its city limits.
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  #833  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 4:17 AM
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There's been an annoying tendency in the media to do the same thing when comparing Halifax's & Moncton's populations regarding the marketability of a CFL franchise.

They always use the total HRM population of 403,000, and then compare it to Moncton's municipal population of 71,000 (not the more comparable Moncton CMA population of 150,000).

I'm not saying that Moncton is a real competitor here, it just pisses me off that somebody in Halifax is feeding the media statistics to make Halifax look particularly good........

HRM is essentially as large as PEI, and the far flung eastern reaches of the municipality are two hours drive from the municipal core.
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  #834  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 2:24 PM
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^^^
Maybe city of Halifax has a good concept going on here, Call your PEI sized regional municipality a city & get an Ikea.. maybe a CFL franchise along the way.
I think I've said once before that Regina/Saskatoon should call itself together a 'Regional Municipality' of ~5 thousand sq kms & with 700,000 people and it would easily be in top ten CMAs of Canada
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  #835  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I think I had that impression as well and I'm not reading particularly flattering things about Bowser but that could be one guy's sour grapes.

Drummond and LeBlanc would have got money from the sale of the Coyotes (not sure how much yet) so that might "legitimize" them but I am not getting a good vibe about this group. Ambrosie, one hopes, as a former financial big time player would have vetted them, as there is no need to rush this.
Drummond is pretty loaded (real estate and agriculture interests). As for the Phoenix situation, well lets say there is more blame to tossed around than just at the ownership.

I'm hoping for this to go through!
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  #836  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 3:32 PM
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Halifax's population is forecasted to be about 434,000 in 2017, of which only 9,000 live in the true eastern hinterland of HRM (former Halifax county). It's complete B.S. that Halifax is spread out all over an area the size of P.E.I.



Population Source

Census Density Map Source


Comparison of population and density between the 3 cities to scale (population estimate in red):

Halifax


Regina


Moncton

Last edited by q12; Nov 18, 2017 at 4:41 PM.
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  #837  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 3:41 PM
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Back to the topic, this would be a sweet option for the CFL in Halifax:



15,000 seat Mikuni World Stadium Kitakyushu just opened this year in Japan (cost approx. $120 Million CAD).
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  #838  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 4:41 PM
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$120M Cad for 15,000 seat stadium seems a bit steep. perhaps they added lots of bells and whistles to that one
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  #839  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by q12 View Post
Halifax's population is forecasted to be about 434,000 in 2017, of which only 9,000 live in the true eastern hinterland of HRM (former Halifax county). It's complete B.S. that Halifax is spread out all over an area the size of P.E.I.
There's also nothing unusual about the geographic extent of the CMA boundaries used to calculate the metro population for Halifax. Only the city boundaries are unusual.

Halifax CMA is about 5,500 square kilometers. Regina is 4,300, Fredericton is 4,500, Ottawa 5,700. The Moncton CMA has a lower population density than Halifax CMA does.

People tend to misunderstand what the boundaries mean. Usually when a large adjacent land area is included it's included because the census divisions are large and often this is because the population density of part of that census divsion is very low. Consequently the inclusion of these areas doesn't matter much.

At the east end the boundaries of the Halifax CMA have almost nothing but then the boundaries to the north bisect a bunch of subdivisions that are obviously suburbs. So it really isn't true at all that the population total is inflated. Lots of other data bears this out, like transportation numbers or the housing type statistics you can find in another thread. If the Halifax CMA were mostly just rural areas combined into a fake metro area it wouldn't have one of the higher levels of transit ridership or highest percentages of apartment dwellings in Canada...
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  #840  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2017, 5:45 PM
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15,000 seat Mikuni World Stadium Kitakyushu just opened this year in Japan (cost approx. $120 Million CAD).
AFAIK 15K isn't enough for a CFL franchise to be financially feasible unless cost per ticket is higher than in all other franchise locations. Average ticket cost requires roughly 19K-20K under the current financial setup of the league.

Unless i'm mistaken, Mayor Savage is also on the record saying that there are four potential stadium locations - none of which are Downtown. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the stadium was proposed for Bedford or Dartmouth Crossing to capture people from the Valley/rural outskirts/Truro. Combining it into a retail hub, which is again something that's been confirmed by Mayor Savage, would slot it into a suburban power centre model like Dartmouth Crossing.
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