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  #241  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 3:47 AM
White Pine White Pine is offline
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St Finnan's Cathedral, Alexandria, Ont.

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  #242  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 4:14 AM
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Sorry, last set is St. Michael's Cathedral in Toronto Pre and post reno (Renovation/restoration completed late 2016)

Before:


Old organ


After:


New organ (Now you can see the back window)


However, some of the old was a shame to see go. Parts of the old ceiling were worth keeping. Apparently, though, the original plan called for the stars.


Also Some HDR pics from Ottawa:




Source: http://rf-photography.ca/

OK I'm done, time to sleep.
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  #243  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 8:22 AM
The Macallan The Macallan is offline
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
I stumbled across a rather unusual church today while exploring Hockley Valley north of Toronto. It's from 1890 in Beeton, ON: St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church. Streetview link.



The steeple is obviously very unusual, but the church is also asymmetrical, which is highly unusual. Neither the steeple, nor the entrances (which I assume were original separated by gender) are centred and the roof is also offset to the east so that the gabled part is off-centre. The final strange element is that the corners are all rounded. I feel like there's a story here and would love to find out more about it.
Separation by gender is quite unlikely in a Presbyterian Church. I can't think off the top of my head of any Presbyterian congregation which practiced that. Not that I am an expert on 19th century Presbyterian history but my late father was an authority on the subject and I never heard him mention the practice. Moreover, if the congregation, as opposed to the building, is older than 1875, the name "St. Andrews" tends to suggest that it came from the less strict strand of Presbyterianism associated with the state Church of Scotland.

My guess would be that the double doors are there for aesthetic reasons. Even Presbyterians are influenced by aesthetics!

There us another possibility. Many older Presbyterian churches have two aisles. That leaves three sections of pews, a broad central section and two narrow side sections on either side of the nave. The two doors in this case may lead to two aisles. I think I have been in that church but I do not recall if that is the case in Beeton.
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  #244  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by The Macallan View Post
Separation by gender is quite unlikely in a Presbyterian Church. I can't think off the top of my head of any Presbyterian congregation which practiced that. Not that I am an expert on 19th century Presbyterian history but my late father was an authority on the subject and I never heard him mention the practice. Moreover, if the congregation, as opposed to the building, is older than 1875, the name "St. Andrews" tends to suggest that it came from the less strict strand of Presbyterianism associated with the state Church of Scotland.

My guess would be that the double doors are there for aesthetic reasons. Even Presbyterians are influenced by aesthetics!

There us another possibility. Many older Presbyterian churches have two aisles. That leaves three sections of pews, a broad central section and two narrow side sections on either side of the nave. The two doors in this case may lead to two aisles. I think I have been in that church but I do not recall if that is the case in Beeton.
I had the same reaction, so I did a bit of on-line reading and, apparently, there were examples of the practice. Whether that applies to the Beeton church, I don't know, and your two aisles explanation seems more likely to me. I note that the United Church in Beeton also has two front entrance doors (on a symmetrical façade).
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  #245  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I had the same reaction, so I did a bit of on-line reading and, apparently, there were examples of the practice. Whether that applies to the Beeton church, I don't know, and your two aisles explanation seems more likely to me. I note that the United Church in Beeton also has two front entrance doors (on a symmetrical façade).
Warning! Long and boring post but there is material about church architecture as such and at least some of what I write applies to Protestant church structures other than just Presbyterian.

Thanks for your follow up. I have an interest in history of many sorts; including the Presbyterian tradition to which I belong and I would like to know more. Could you send me a private message with the links you found? There are exceptions to just about every rule but I do think gender separation would be at least unusual in a Canadian Presbyterian Church. I'll mention two reasons that are relevant to a board of this type, architecture and money

Firstly, a social practice like segregation of the sexes, will have to be facilitated architecturally and leave marks on the structure. Your note about the two doors might be an example of that factor. However, the more important thing is that you would have to have some form of demarcation in the interior. A physical barrier of some sort would be the obvious solution but I have been in a lot of older Presbyterian churches and can't recall ever seeing one. A centre aisle would even do but as I stated, many of the older churches in the country have two side aisles and three sections of seating. In fact, I would say this might even be the most common arrangement in many parts of the country. The middle section is the largest by far and most people would sit (still sit) in those areas. It would be difficult to arrange gender segregation in that kind of setup. If you wanted to have it, you would arrange the pews differently.

City churches in the Protestant traditions in the late 19 century often were built in what might be called an amphitheatre style with horseshoe or circular balconies and a high central pulpit over a small central communion table. Often an "Akron Plan" Sunday School area was built behind the sanctuary. Aisles converged, as it were, towards that central focus. Without going into further boring detail, I will only say that this style of architecture also would not be adopted by people who believed in gender segregation. The point with respect to both kinds of churches is not exactly that you could not enforce gender serration in these churches, though it would be difficult. It is rather that if gender segregation were a practice, you would design the church differently.

To move to a more positive way of stating my point, family worship was very important in pious Presbyterian and in Protestant homes of many traditions. When those families went to church, they also normally sat as families. This is where the money comes in also! The older way of financing the church in many instances was not primarily a free will offering but rather what was called "pew rent." That was just what it sounds like. A family would rent a particular pew and have the right to occupy it every Sunday. In some older churches, they have never removed the numbered bronze plaques that would identify these pews and you can see them to this very day. This was a very strong indication that family seating was the normal practice. (And an incentive towards family seating!)

At a certain point, of course, young people would want to get away from their families, as they have done from time immemorial. I can certainly conceive of churches wanting to discourage adolescent boys and girls from sitting together. It would be most unseemly to have their flirting disturb the decorum of the worship of Almighty God, perhaps particularly in the Almighty's sometimes rather grim Presbyterian form!

I was going to try to post some pictures of some beautiful older churches I have come across anyways, but I think some of the photos might also evidence what I have been writing about.
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  #246  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2016, 8:19 PM
The Macallan The Macallan is offline
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One of the most lovely churches in the country is, I think, the Sharon Temple, near Newmarket, Ontario, It was built between 1825 and 1832 by a Quaker like sect called the Children of Peace.



From the York Urbanist [url]http://yorkurbanist.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2011/12SharonTemple.jpg[url]

There are also several interesting outbuildings on the site, including the study of the leader of the group, David Wilson.

It may be of particular interest here because of its contrast with the more ornamented churches in earlier posts. It is an architectural expression of the love of "simplicity," which is at once an aesthetic choice and a theological/spiritual commitment. Here is a photo of the interior:




http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/Sharon_Temple_interior-web_version.jpg

There is an almost complete absence of ornamentation but not an absence of beauty. Note the grace of the curve of the stairway to the upper reaches of the structure, for example.

Simplicity can be an excuse for being satisfied with the grim, plain and stark. But at its best, it can be quite wonderful, I think. Here is the version of the old Shaker song "Simple gifts" by Allison Kraus and Yo Yo Ma. It is a musical expression of the love of simplicity? The Shakers were part of that strand of Protestantism to which the Children of Peace also belonged. (Pardon some of the images! Though the dancing girls do fit. It may have been a set of directions for the dance.)

https://youtu.be/fYi9Vr8bHJY

Last edited by The Macallan; Dec 11, 2016 at 7:01 AM.
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  #247  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2016, 2:39 AM
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St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church, Niagara on the Lake, Ontario. The original church was burned by American forces in 1813. The new church was dedicated in 1831.



From the church website http://www.standrewsniagara.com/site...ntersunset.jpg

And by daylight:


From the blog of the minister of another church that ought to appear in this thread, Peter Holmes, of Yorkminster Park Baptist Church, Toronto
http://peter.yorkminsterpark.com/Blog-SA1.JPG

The interior. Note the old fashioned box pews. A family would occupy one of those. In the winter they might take in warmed bricks or hot water bottles to keep their extremities warm.


Also from the church website http://www.standrewsniagara.com/site...ngregation.jpg

At communion services, they would wrap huge ancient planks in white linen and lay them across the front of the box pews. The planks were so wide and thick that I think they must have gone back to pioneer days. The elders would lay the pewter trays with the bread and the wine of the sacrament on the end of the planks and slide them across to the worshippers. It made a unique and lovely whispering susurration through the church. I should say that this was the way it was done twenty years ago. I hope it is still the case.

The high pulpit



From http://cac.mcgill.ca/bland/Building/...ull/15-115.JPG

The minister had better not have a fear of heights! There are low doors at the top of each of the curving stairs to give at least a little sense of security. It is not clear in the photo but beneath the pulpit, behind the communion table, there is a desk. In the 19th century the preceptor, who led the singing of the church would be seated there. Presbyterian churches did not have organs in those days and primarily or even exclusively sang psalms. Typically, the preceptor had a set of tuning forks with which he would give the note and then line out the psalms for the congregation to sing.
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  #248  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2016, 2:53 AM
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I do know some schools had separate boys and girls entrances, though I don't think the classrooms were gender-segregated. I'm not entirely sure why they were that way, but the evidence is clear on the buildings where the stonework still declares the separate entrances. It doesn't seem far-fetched that something similar would be in place in a church, although I don't know any examples of it myself.

The separate aisles seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation for the separate entrances as well. It would be great to get a view of the interior which I feel might explain some of the peculiarities of that particular church. I'm frankly surprised there wasn't some sort of article lurking around online about it, because it strays very far outside the normal vernacular for church architecture.
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  #249  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2016, 5:43 AM
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I came across an interesting video on YouTube about London's churches. London, due to being an older and old wealth city has been blessed with many lovely churches several of which are right downtown. I am a COMPLETE and utter moron when it comes to computers so I have no idea in the slightest how to put the video on this thread.

For anyone with more computer skills than me {which would entail about everyone on this entire site} I would appreciate if someone could put up the about 6 minute vid. It's on YouTube under "Beautiful Churches London Ontario" Thanks.
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  #250  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 10:51 PM
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There is an old country church located in the heart of the Toronto suburb of Scarborough. It is located on seventeen acres of land donated by David and Mary Thomson, the first European settlers of the area. It lies on the edge of what is now a park commemorating those pioneers so it still echoes its origins as a country church. It is approached from the west by a winding road which hasn't changed much in a century. It passes the old graveyard attached to the church. It is best to approach from the west rather than from the east where an addition from the fifties is located.



From the church website https://standrewsscarborough.files.w...g?w=1280&h=720

An Historical Plaque






[img]https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/f...5431410062.jpg[/img]


From the cemetery website. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/f...5431410062.jpg


The cemetery


Also from the cemetery website. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/f...6334518598.jpg

Sorry to the poster above. I haven't learned to put in video clips.
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  #251  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2016, 1:37 AM
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I feel we need hospital and graveyard threads.
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  #252  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2016, 2:15 AM
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The Great Canadian Graveyard Thread
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  #253  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2016, 7:01 PM
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St. Peter's Cathedral Basilica, the seat of the Roman Catholic Diocese of London:


Source: basicfunerals.ca


Source: partingtonphotography.ca

It is affiliated with St. Peter's Seminary, which is one of six English language seminaries in Canada. The Seminary recently announced a $30 million renovation program for its historic building:

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  #255  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 3:09 PM
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The ceiling of St James, Montreal fascinates me.
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  #256  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 5:10 PM
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Ditto. I must have stopped on tgat image for about 2 minutes. Montreal is blessed with an abundance of grand cathedrals and Churches.
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  #257  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 5:39 PM
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The Great Canadian Graveyard Thread
Montreal would win that one too.
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  #258  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 6:18 PM
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I was in Mauricie this Sunday. I went through 2 villages with very interesting churches.

The first one was in Saint-Narcisse, a village of 1837 inhabitants located 44 km north-east of Trois-Rivières. I couldn't get inside, but I looked at its entry on the cultural heritage inventory of Quebec.


Inventaire des lieux de culte du Québec


Inventaire des lieux de culte du Québec

I've also been impressed with the church of Saint-Casimir (pop. 1465, 55 km east of Trois-Rivières and Shawinigan)


Inventaire des lieux de culte du Québec


Inventaire des lieux de culte du Québec


Inventaire des lieux de culte du Québec


L&#x27;église de Saint-Casimir by Carole Bleau, sur Flickr
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  #259  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 7:12 PM
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^ That one in Saint-Casimir is epic. You kind of get numb to all the spectacular churches in Montreal, but seeing something like that in a small town is an eye-opener.
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  #260  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2016, 7:29 PM
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