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View Poll Results: Which route should be twinned? Quelle route doit-on élargir?
11 4 15.38%
17 22 84.62%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 10:43 PM
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Twinning Hwy 17 along Lake Superior would be insanely expensive. There would also be issues with provincial parks. And with many snowsqualls there are often highway closures on the 17 between the Sault and Wawa.

Highway 11 would be easier to twin and for bypassing towns.
And they won't even put up a fight?! Wow that's a first. Until now, I've never heard of any town that won't at least put up a fight to keep the highway (and hence businesses) through it (i.e. Nobel, Nipigon, Kakabeka Falls).

By the way, has anyone heard the "news" (quotation marks because it's been a month now) that the Chamber of Commerce of Timiskaming Shores asked MTO to turn 11 into a 2+1 because a 4-laned freeway doesn't seem to add up for MTO? Dang I wanna read up more on that. The news for that wasn't free. All in all, though, the chamber shouldn't have compromised.

Also, west of Matheson, should the twinning follow 101, up 655, back to 11, or follow 11 all the way with a freeway that bypasses Timmins on the north?
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 10:44 PM
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As swimmer spe wrote, the MTO has been looking at Hwy 11 intersecting with 17 right at the Westernmost part of the city limits. Right by where the new hospital is I believe. Some issues is that it is right beside the Duchesnay Falls conservation area and right near Nipissing First Nation. It would mean a longer section of where Hwys 17 and 11 are together. The MTO also has had plans to make the North Bay "bypass" a freeway all of the way through but I'm not sure if that has been shelved indefinitely.
It is shelved for the time being. The properties are being bought up by the MTO. I now this as one of my family owns one of the properties yet to be bought up. Basically, if they put it up for sale, they can only sell it to the MTO.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 10:48 PM
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It is shelved for the time being. The properties are being bought up by the MTO. I now this as one of my family owns one of the properties yet to be bought up. Basically, if they put it up for sale, they can only sell it to the MTO.
May MTO buy the property at a fair price then. (Read: May your family not be scammed/taken advantage of by the government.)

Also @Loco101: Thank you for your comments; @swimmer_spe: Yea the AADT on the "bypass" can be as high as 22300. :o
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 10:51 PM
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May MTO buy the property at a fair price then. (Read: May your family not be scammed/taken advantage of by the government.)

Also at Loco101: Thank you for your comments.
Thank you. I think that is why they are holding out.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 10:54 PM
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Thank you. I think that is why they are holding out.
This is actually my first time hearing/learning both sides of the story (in this case, property expropriation for infrastructural expansion) too.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 11:25 PM
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Wait a second, people. How's the hospital gonna sit well with a freeway right by it? o_o
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
And they won't even put up a fight?! Wow that's a first. Until now, I've never heard of any town that won't at least put up a fight to keep the highway (and hence businesses) through it (i.e. Nobel, Nipigon, Kakabeka Falls).

By the way, has anyone heard the "news" (quotation marks because it's been a month now) that the Chamber of Commerce of Timiskaming Shores asked MTO to turn 11 into a 2+1 because a 4-laned freeway doesn't seem to add up for MTO? Dang I wanna read up more on that. The news for that wasn't free. All in all, though, the chamber shouldn't have compromised.

Also, west of Matheson, should the twinning follow 101, up 655, back to 11, or follow 11 all the way with a freeway that bypasses Timmins on the north?
Some of those towns may try to delay a bypass but they know that eventually it will happen. Some places actually like having a safer main road and not the constant noisy transports going through. They will work with the MTO to have interchanges at each end of the town and where businesses can advertise for the exits. The most recent bypass that I have read about is Hwy 17 going around Mattawa. You can probably Google to find out how that is going.

Temiskaming Shores isn't all that bad because you've always been able to through it where the maximum speed is 80km/h through the busiest part with the businesses. There normally isn't that much traffic but you may end up actually driving about 60km/h and there are a couple traffic lights. A bypass would be nice and it would actually be close to the current highway so I don't think it would really hurt the current businesses.

Not sure about twinning Hwy 101 from Matheson and then up Hwy 655. I'd say it would be easier just keep it along 11.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:32 AM
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It is shelved for the time being. The properties are being bought up by the MTO. I now this as one of my family owns one of the properties yet to be bought up. Basically, if they put it up for sale, they can only sell it to the MTO.
That's what I thought. I lived on O'Brien Street for a year so I know the area well.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:34 AM
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Uh for MB, don't forget that the segment from west of Falcon Lake to provincial boundary is 2-laned. The main reason is that Canadian Shield has kicked in.

For BC, at least they're committed to twinning Highway 1, and it seems that AADT isn't the main reason. (I could have got that wrong though.) I have always thought that, if BC ends up finishing it, it will set a (very) good example for Ontario and Manitoba too.

For the last part, I was so gonna name the States, just to realize that their population density is higher. (In that case, I wonder if western China will be an appropriate example.) A 4-laned freeway that's 7.5k km long though, that did give me some perspective. :O
AADT is one criteria of many for the decision to twin highways. Other factors may include percentage of heavy truck traffic, suitability of alternate routes, grades and curve radii, weather conditions, among other considerations.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:41 AM
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Wait a second, people. How's the hospital gonna sit well with a freeway right by it? o_o
I don't think the hospital will be an issue.

I forgot to mention that there is a system of hiking trails between the falls and Nipissing University/Canadore College.
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:43 AM
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As swimmer spe wrote, the MTO has been looking at Hwy 11 intersecting with 17 right at the Westernmost part of the city limits. Right by where the new hospital is I believe. Some issues is that it is right beside the Duchesnay Falls conservation area and right near Nipissing First Nation. It would mean a longer section of where Hwys 17 and 11 are together. The MTO also has had plans to make the North Bay "bypass" a freeway all of the way through but I'm not sure if that has been shelved indefinitely.
The Escarpment would be quite the barrier to any new highway. That and Trout Lake. It's an ugly spot for a bypass and would be quite expensive.

I think the MTO has shelved it, AFAIK.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 2:08 AM
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Yea I've heard that building any bypass between West Nipissing and North Bay will be difficult. It'll be ironic if my suggestion (aka relocating every shop on the east side of Algonquin from Maplewood to Airport) ends up being the cheaper option.
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 4:51 AM
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It's certainly a possibility that Algonquin Avenue could be altered and businesses and some houses demolished.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 4:54 AM
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It's certainly a possibility that Algonquin Avenue could be altered and businesses and some houses demolished.
What about Thebault Hill?

Not much space to widen it.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2017, 1:17 PM
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What about Thebault Hill?

Not much space to widen it.
The segment north of Airport Road is already divided. Also, even with the narrow shoulder due to the emergency truck lane, MTO can still get away with a speed limit of 100 kph once the freeway becomes a thing.
By the way, that segment is really what makes the option to relocate every shop on the east side of Algonquin Avenue, attractive.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2017, 2:06 AM
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The MTO has a large property at the bottom of Thibeault Hill that is used for maintenance by whatever company has the contract for highway maintenance.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2017, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
The segment north of Airport Road is already divided. Also, even with the narrow shoulder due to the emergency truck lane, MTO can still get away with a speed limit of 100 kph once the freeway becomes a thing.
By the way, that segment is really what makes the option to relocate every shop on the east side of Algonquin Avenue, attractive.
The issue with bringing the speed up to 100 on that hill is going down, you have a short distance to make a turn onto 11/17. That is what makes it unattractive.
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2017, 2:45 AM
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No wonder that stretch of 11 is divided with a concrete median. In that case, what about reducing the slope of that hill before Airport Road? This is what I mean: Halfway before the current alignment of 11 reaches the bottom of that hill, we smooth it, then construct an overpass from there, which will hover over Algonquin Avenue until south of 17. For visualization, refer to Gardiner Expressway over Lakeshore Boulevard in Downtown Toronto.
This way, we only need to relocate 1-2 properties instead of everything on the east side. Aesthetics will be one of the problems though.

Edit: Never mind that's a dumb idea.

At this rate, crossing Trout Lake and then squeezing in between the golf course and the airport may be the only viable option. :/ And that's only for the 11. For 17, we will need to come down east of Nipissing University (with an interchange to access it) and go down Gormanville Road to merge back to 17W. Hence, everything along that road will have to be relocated onto College Drive.
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Last edited by Dengler Avenue; Nov 22, 2017 at 3:01 AM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2017, 3:20 AM
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No wonder that stretch of 11 is divided with a concrete median. In that case, what about reducing the slope of that hill before Airport Road? This is what I mean: Halfway before the current alignment of 11 reaches the bottom of that hill, we smooth it, then construct an overpass from there, which will hover over Algonquin Avenue until south of 17. For visualization, refer to Gardiner Expressway over Lakeshore Boulevard in Downtown Toronto.
This way, we only need to relocate 1-2 properties instead of everything on the east side. Aesthetics will be one of the problems though.

Edit: Never mind that's a dumb idea.

At this rate, crossing Trout Lake and then squeezing in between the golf course and the airport may be the only viable option. :/ And that's only for the 11. For 17, we will need to come down east of Nipissing University (with an interchange to access it) and go down Gormanville Road to merge back to 17W. Hence, everything along that road will have to be relocated onto College Drive.
If you look at Google Maps satellite view, you will see that most of the land is clear from where 11S and 17E interchange to almost O'brian. That takes care of that area. It i from O'brian to the top of the hill that is the issue.

I still think they will swing 11N along the edge of the FN reserve and the Duchesney Falls/creek area. The West side of the falls have only a trail that follows the river. Also, that land is not a rugged as trying to tame Thebault Hill.

To tame Thebault Hill:
1) All businesses along Algonquin North of 17 would need to be removed.
2) A berm or overpass could be built that would reduce the grade and make the transfer to 11/17 reasonable. It would also allow the installation of an interchange with McKeown/Airport Road.

.....

There are many challenges to twining.

For another example, look at Blind River/Algoma Mills area.
You would need to put it north of Lake Lauzon.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2017, 3:49 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
If you look at Google Maps satellite view, you will see that most of the land is clear from where 11S and 17E interchange to almost O'brian. That takes care of that area. It i from O'brian to the top of the hill that is the issue.

I still think they will swing 11N along the edge of the FN reserve and the Duchesney Falls/creek area. The West side of the falls have only a trail that follows the river. Also, that land is not a rugged as trying to tame Thebault Hill.

To tame Thebault Hill:
1) All businesses along Algonquin North of 17 would need to be removed.
2) A berm or overpass could be built that would reduce the grade and make the transfer to 11/17 reasonable. It would also allow the installation of an interchange with McKeown/Airport Road.

.....

There are many challenges to twining.

For another example, look at Blind River/Algoma Mills area.
You would need to put it north of Lake Lauzon.
Option 2's what I was trying to get at.

As for twinning 17 till SSM, alternatively, we will have to wreck those 2 towns if Missisaugi 8 FN says no to letting the freeway pass through. Man I've already lost count of how many times I have looked at the google satellite view of that area.
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