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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 12:22 AM
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I am astonished that it took several hours (and that a bunch of replies went by) before someone pointed out how racist the OP was.
32,853 of my 39,610 posts are accusing people of being racist. I decided to save some for the other members for once.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These are good questions, but it's worth noting that Doug Ford gets singled out for/with this (presumably because people don't like him) whereas Justin Trudeau does not.

And I say this as someone who much prefers the latter over the former.
Doug Ford, Donald Trump and Justin Trudeau are all playing identity politics. But while Trudeau is trying to play for the minority/POC/LGBT side, Doug and Donald are playing for the white cishet male side.

It's the same game, and as much as people say they hate it, they sure seem to enjoy playing it. That whole straight pride parade bullshit that comes up every June? That's identity politics. Quebec's religious symbols ban? Identity politics. "We're fighting back against the elites!"-style othering of a group? Identity politics.

Doug Ford is an identity politician for an identity politics crowd. That's part of why he's there. The other part is that, like Trump, he's the brick through the window of normalcy. I think in our cushioned, first world democracy, people are getting kind of bored of the stability and calmness and want something to fight against or fight for. Doug delivers!

Because that's what identity politics is: an expression of rage against the machine.

I mean, I hate what he's doing and it's literally disrupted my life and changed my plans for the future, but look at how excited I am to badmouth him! I didn't even feel this mad when Harper was in power! Partly because he didn't jeopardize my sense of stability when he was in power but also partly because he wasn't an identity politician. And when he tried to be one with his Barbaric Cultural Practices Hotline, we got Trudeau, because why go for the tasteless off-brand version of IP when you can get name brand?
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 1:36 AM
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I never said anything of the sort. Learn to read or shut the fuck up.
No amount of rage will make the statement in question any more congruent.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 1:46 AM
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Wow. I never knew that "élites" and "the establishment" were code words for racial and religious minorities in Ontario. Whoda thunk it?
Only you, because I understand "the elites", as referenced by politicians like Doug Ford and Donald Trump to be (and I think Doady might also), not people who are racial or religious minorities, but rather, people who use the struggles of people who are racial or religious minorities for political or economic gains, whether in a positive manner (campaigning for rights) or a negative one (campaigning for restrictions).

Doug Ford doesn't really use racially charged language in his governing, but his actions have negative ramifications for people who are racial minorities because he ignores their perspectives almost entirely in an effort to "not be racially biased". Anyone who listens to the perspectives of minorities and develops policies that accommodates them, compared to "regular policies", is "biased". And it's those people who accommodate that are elites.

The other side of elites is anyone who has found success through oppression. Walmart, for example, is owned by elites. Hillary Clinton used to serve on their board. People who shop at Walmart like that Walmart cheap. People who work for Walmart hate it because Walmart is cheap. Walmart's majority owners, the Walton family, are elite because they're billionaires, and they're billionaires because they pay low wages and undercut small business to maximize profits.

Doug Ford is both kinds of negative elite, but he talks like he isn't, and this is the third front: he appeals to the people who view themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires". People who feel that they should be wildly successful, if only (insert policy here). A lot of people feel that way. Almost anyone working in the private sector for a while, I can guarantee you, has looked at their supervisor or their boss or their company's owner, and felt "I could be there, if only". Except you can't. We can't all be bosses. That doesn't make sense. But you still get that "if only" idea once in a while. A lot of people that support Doug Ford seem to have a feeling that their success is held back by something. They can't identify what. But Doug can! Doug does! It's the elites! And he's going to fight the elites! For us!

But it's easier for you to argue against the concept of "elites" being racial and religious minorities, and that's cool. You do you.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
These are good questions, but it's worth noting that Doug Ford gets singled out for/with this (presumably because people don't like him) whereas Justin Trudeau does not.

And I say this as someone who much prefers the latter over the former.
To me it's pretty obvious that this is because Trudeau is very verbal in his stated intentions to improve inclusiveness. He's even been attacked by some elements of the right for his glorification of diversity and multiculturalism. Whether or not he's effective at achieving his stated goals is another question of course.

I think there's also the lesser aspect of Doug's "guilt by association" where if someone is associated with other people who stand for something viewed as harmful, that association can tarnish the person's image even if they don't directly take part in the harmful activities. Doug is often compared to people who are much overt with some of their actions.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
To me it's pretty obvious that this is because Trudeau is very verbal in his stated intentions to improve inclusiveness. He's even been attacked by some elements of the right for his glorification of diversity and multiculturalism. Whether or not he's effective at achieving his stated goals is another question of course.

I think there's also the lesser aspect of Doug's "guilt by association" where if someone is associated with other people who stand for something viewed as harmful, that association can tarnish the person's image even if they don't directly take part in the harmful activities. Doug is often compared to people who are much overt with some of their actions.
But is that really fair to Doug Ford?
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Only you, because I understand "the elites", as referenced by politicians like Doug Ford and Donald Trump to be (and I think Doady might also), not people who are racial or religious minorities, but rather, people who use the struggles of people who are racial or religious minorities for political or economic gains, whether in a positive manner (campaigning for rights) or a negative one (campaigning for restrictions).

Doug Ford doesn't really use racially charged language in his governing, but his actions have negative ramifications for people who are racial minorities because he ignores their perspectives almost entirely in an effort to "not be racially biased". Anyone who listens to the perspectives of minorities and develops policies that accommodates them, compared to "regular policies", is "biased". And it's those people who accommodate that are elites.

The other side of elites is anyone who has found success through oppression. Walmart, for example, is owned by elites. Hillary Clinton used to serve on their board. People who shop at Walmart like that Walmart cheap. People who work for Walmart hate it because Walmart is cheap. Walmart's majority owners, the Walton family, are elite because they're billionaires, and they're billionaires because they pay low wages and undercut small business to maximize profits.

Doug Ford is both kinds of negative elite, but he talks like he isn't, and this is the third front: he appeals to the people who view themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires". People who feel that they should be wildly successful, if only (insert policy here). A lot of people feel that way. Almost anyone working in the private sector for a while, I can guarantee you, has looked at their supervisor or their boss or their company's owner, and felt "I could be there, if only". Except you can't. We can't all be bosses. That doesn't make sense. But you still get that "if only" idea once in a while. A lot of people that support Doug Ford seem to have a feeling that their success is held back by something. They can't identify what. But Doug can! Doug does! It's the elites! And he's going to fight the elites! For us!

But it's easier for you to argue against the concept of "elites" being racial and religious minorities, and that's cool. You do you.
So Doug Ford attacks élites, few of whom are minorities, because they are too preoccupied with minorities.

But lots of minorities still vote for him anyway.

???????
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:26 AM
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What's really funny is that Sarah89's logic actually demands that whoever is Ontario Premier has to be a White Anglo.

Should we elect a White Anglo? We're not sure, because that group only represents 45% of Ontario. Okay then. Who should we elect?

An Ontarian of Chinese ancestry? Of course not, that's even less representative; only 15% of Ontario!
An Ontarian of South Asian ancestry? Not better, again only 15%.
A black Ontarian? Even worse - only 10%.
A Franco-Ontarian? Absolutely not... that's only 8%.
An Ontarian of Filipino ancestry? Nope; 5%.
A Native/Aboriginal Ontarian? Definitely not! etc.

So, the most acceptable choice is to stick with making sure we only elect people from the main group. Someone from any of the other groups would be unacceptably unrepresentative of the people. So we stick to White Anglos only.

(Alternatively, we can just elect whoever we want. That's what I'd recommend; I disagree with Sarah89's logic that only Whites should be elected. )
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
What's really funny is that Sarah89's logic actually demands that whoever is Ontario Premier has to be a White Anglo.

Should we elect a White Anglo? We're not sure, because that group only represents 45% of Ontario. Okay then. Who should we elect?

An Ontarian of Chinese ancestry? Of course not, that's even less representative; only 15% of Ontario!
An Ontarian of South Asian ancestry? Not better, again only 15%.
A black Ontarian? Even worse - only 10%.
A Franco-Ontarian? Absolutely not... that's only 8%.
An Ontarian of Filipino ancestry? Nope; 5%.
A Native/Aboriginal Ontarian? Definitely not! etc.

So, the most acceptable choice is to stick with making sure we only elect people from the main group. Someone from any of the other groups would be unacceptably unrepresentative of the people. So we stick to White Anglos only.

(Alternatively, we can just elect whoever we want. That's what I'd recommend; I disagree with Sarah89's logic that only Whites should be elected. )
But all of those minorities have tons of affinities between them and share nothing with White Anglos. Because as we all know all minorities always stick together.

The White Anglo is the odd man out.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:39 AM
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But is that really fair to Doug Ford?
If you mean was the original post fair to Ford, then of course not. I don't want to insult anybody but that was umm... Criticism should obviously be limited to actual policies and actions rather than identity.

But if you mean the issue of Ford not being seen as a supporter of social cohesion and inclusiveness, then I think it's "logical" in a cause and effect sort of way. Ford clearly doesn't make the same effort to visibly support those priorities compared to Trudeau and that is his decision. And it's up to him and his advisors to communicate with the public and manage his image by actively setting himself apart from people or ideas who he's being inaccurately being associated with - assuming that he considers such associations to be inaccurate. But it's not really clear if any of that was actually related to the original post or if it was just a matter of the poster not linking him.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 2:42 AM
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For all his limitations he has been incredibly adept at not fully wearing the identity politics asshole jacket.

I honestly do not know what he really thinks and I think many voters are the same.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 3:10 AM
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Ford has similarities to a Trump-style politician but he's definitely not identical. He doesn't provoke nearly as many groups. He stays away from ethnic and religious issues for the most part because he lives in Toronto and doing so would be political suicide. He isn't fond of LGBT things and just doesn't really comment about them. He could care less about Indigenous issues as he knows absolutely nothing about them. But he does like to say that he won't cater to special interest groups which is pretty vague but appeals to those on the right.

He certainly makes up shit, not nearly as extreme as Trump does but still isn't truthful when speaking about many things. For example, nobody being laid off because of cuts.

He likes to go after his opponents with harsh criticisms but can't come up with any real and functional plans of his own. An obsession with where beer can be sold is simply ridiculous.

He loves to say that he's "For the People" and for the little guy when he's a very wealthy person who inherited a company from his Father and made business tax cuts a priority.

He became so obsessed in undoing things that the Kathleen Wynne Liberals implemented and even things that were popular. Similar to how Trump has been obsessed with undoing Obama's things.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 3:26 PM
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So Doug Ford attacks élites, few of whom are minorities, because they are too preoccupied with minorities.

But lots of minorities still vote for him anyway.

???????
Elites don’t provide much actual help to minorities, just a lot of talk. The Fords are retail politicians. If the toilet was clogged in your public housing project you could call Rob Ford day or night and he would take care of it.

Last edited by acottawa; Jun 20, 2019 at 3:54 PM. Reason: I hate autocorrect
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 12:10 AM
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So Doug Ford attacks élites, few of whom are minorities, because they are too preoccupied with minorities.

But lots of minorities still vote for him anyway.

???????
I know this is hard for you, being from Kweebeck and all, but minorities aren't a monolithic bloc. How/whether minorities vote for whom is not directly correlated to the degree or flavour (for lack of a better word) of virtue signalling coming from any candidate. I think we're either arguing about two different things or we're misinterpreting each other. I'm stoneder than you'd think. Scotiadank.

Doug's virtue signalling is white talk, and it breezes past his head, by which I mean minorities heads haha. Low information white voters get drawn in by his "us against the elites!" chant just as white low information voters get drawn in by Trudeau's "redskins is a racist team name!" chant and vote for him. The actual minorities? They're more complex. Like a well crafted stew, there is a lot going on there and the end result is far more complicated than the buns we're dipping in it to soak up the juicy, juicy broth.

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Elites don’t provide much actual help to minorities, just a lot of talk. The Fords are retail politicians. If the toilet was clogged in your public housing project you could call Rob Ford day or night and he would take care of it.
That's one of the things that I respected about Rob Ford (and I don't think we see it as much from Doug). He was a true people person and a real kiss-ass, and he genuinely enjoyed and wanted to make people's lives better in some way. His point of view was really misguided and his lower level of intellect caused his good will to be abused by the more malicious people around him (like his brother) but at heart he was a kind man. His heart wept for all the cyclists caught up in Toronto's rush hour traffic. You don't find that with most politicians.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 12:12 AM
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Elites don’t provide much actual help to minorities, just a lot of talk. The Fords are retail politicians. If the toilet was clogged in your public housing project you could call Rob Ford day or night and he would take care of it.
Only if you live in Toronto. He's clueless about elsewhere.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 12:31 AM
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Only if you live in Toronto. He's clueless about elsewhere.
Yeah but can you imagine a Thunder Bay Rob Ford?
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 1:45 AM
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Yeah but can you imagine a Thunder Bay Rob Ford?
I remember people I know who used to live in Thunder Bay talking about a past T-Bay mayor who was pretty crazy. Not exactly the same as Ford but quite unorthodox as well. I'll look him up.

Walter Assef

He reminds me of Donald Trump with how he belittles others.

Here is a video of him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukKJ8EmphSo

It's worth watching even if you don't live in Thunder Bay!
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 3:50 AM
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Yeah he was a piece of shit. Nothing got done because of him, it was always in spite of him.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 10:39 AM
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Thumbs up

Ford Fest baby! Free hotdogs and pop! Look at the fucking Ontario flag! People probably don't even know what that flag means

Picture is gigantic but that's kind of appropriate


Kill me
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 4:20 PM
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There is a video going around Twitter of one of the attendees in a MAGA hat who is asked what makes Doug Ford so great and can't say anything other than "he's just great".

Top notch crowd at that event fer shure eh?
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 5:54 PM
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Ford Fest baby! Free hotdogs and pop! Look at the fucking Ontario flag! People probably don't even know what that flag means

Picture is gigantic but that's kind of appropriate


Kill me
Is that the ghost of Rob Ford with the blue hat (Blue Jay hat?) and a brown t-shirt.

I just see a huge crowd full of the 'elites'
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